Can the Aztec Empire learn and reuse Conquistador technology?
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In this alternate history, Christopher Columbus makes landfall in Central America, after passing south of Florida and sailing through the Gulf of Mexico, arriving right on the doorstep of the Aztec Empire.
The First Contact goes badly and most of the expedition is slaughtered. The survivors are taken prisoner and the Aztecs salvage everything they can from Columbus' ships.
Could the Aztecs do something useful with this new technological knowledge; applying and reusing it for their gain, becoming the major power of the Americas and ending up sending their own expedition back to Spain?
In this alternate history, with no news of Columbus, Europe assumes that he is lost and nobody sends another expedition, deeming the very idea foolish. The European powers focus on Africa and Asia.
EDIT: To address some points:
I'm only dealing with Columbus first arrival. What happened after that in our history won't happen in this alternate version. Please don't answer with examples of later Conquistadors who came armed to the teeth or what happened when the conquest was in full swing.
This is part of the background of the alternate history that I want to make as believable and coherent with what we know of this time as possible, technology-wise. I'm not going to write the story of this alternate First Contact.
I'm well aware that what defeated the original civilizations of the Americas are the diseases brought by the Europeans, more than weapons or anything else. That's another fact that I'll deal with later.
The expedition that the Aztecs would send back to Spain isn't sent to conquer Spain and Europe, but merely to establish formal contact with the people from the other side of the ocean.
reality-check technology alternate-history
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up vote
26
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In this alternate history, Christopher Columbus makes landfall in Central America, after passing south of Florida and sailing through the Gulf of Mexico, arriving right on the doorstep of the Aztec Empire.
The First Contact goes badly and most of the expedition is slaughtered. The survivors are taken prisoner and the Aztecs salvage everything they can from Columbus' ships.
Could the Aztecs do something useful with this new technological knowledge; applying and reusing it for their gain, becoming the major power of the Americas and ending up sending their own expedition back to Spain?
In this alternate history, with no news of Columbus, Europe assumes that he is lost and nobody sends another expedition, deeming the very idea foolish. The European powers focus on Africa and Asia.
EDIT: To address some points:
I'm only dealing with Columbus first arrival. What happened after that in our history won't happen in this alternate version. Please don't answer with examples of later Conquistadors who came armed to the teeth or what happened when the conquest was in full swing.
This is part of the background of the alternate history that I want to make as believable and coherent with what we know of this time as possible, technology-wise. I'm not going to write the story of this alternate First Contact.
I'm well aware that what defeated the original civilizations of the Americas are the diseases brought by the Europeans, more than weapons or anything else. That's another fact that I'll deal with later.
The expedition that the Aztecs would send back to Spain isn't sent to conquer Spain and Europe, but merely to establish formal contact with the people from the other side of the ocean.
reality-check technology alternate-history
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
15 hours ago
"becoming the major power of the Americas and ending up sending their own expedition back to Spain?" So, that's two very different questions, there. It's one thing to build 3 ships capable of a trans-Atlantic voyage, it's quite another to become the dominant power in a continent or region. ... and for what it's worth, Spain in 1492 was not the dominant power in Europe, so why do the Aztecs need to become the dominant power in Mesoamerica with this captured technology?
– HopelessN00b
12 hours ago
IIRC, a basic problem is that the ship would have landed in the territory of one of the Aztec's subject peoples. They were not really fond of Aztec rule (human sacrifice tends to do that), which was a major factor in Cortez' later success. So it seems more likely that the technology, if it could be adopted successfully, would be used to overthrow the Aztecs.
– jamesqf
12 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
26
down vote
favorite
up vote
26
down vote
favorite
In this alternate history, Christopher Columbus makes landfall in Central America, after passing south of Florida and sailing through the Gulf of Mexico, arriving right on the doorstep of the Aztec Empire.
The First Contact goes badly and most of the expedition is slaughtered. The survivors are taken prisoner and the Aztecs salvage everything they can from Columbus' ships.
Could the Aztecs do something useful with this new technological knowledge; applying and reusing it for their gain, becoming the major power of the Americas and ending up sending their own expedition back to Spain?
In this alternate history, with no news of Columbus, Europe assumes that he is lost and nobody sends another expedition, deeming the very idea foolish. The European powers focus on Africa and Asia.
EDIT: To address some points:
I'm only dealing with Columbus first arrival. What happened after that in our history won't happen in this alternate version. Please don't answer with examples of later Conquistadors who came armed to the teeth or what happened when the conquest was in full swing.
This is part of the background of the alternate history that I want to make as believable and coherent with what we know of this time as possible, technology-wise. I'm not going to write the story of this alternate First Contact.
I'm well aware that what defeated the original civilizations of the Americas are the diseases brought by the Europeans, more than weapons or anything else. That's another fact that I'll deal with later.
The expedition that the Aztecs would send back to Spain isn't sent to conquer Spain and Europe, but merely to establish formal contact with the people from the other side of the ocean.
reality-check technology alternate-history
In this alternate history, Christopher Columbus makes landfall in Central America, after passing south of Florida and sailing through the Gulf of Mexico, arriving right on the doorstep of the Aztec Empire.
The First Contact goes badly and most of the expedition is slaughtered. The survivors are taken prisoner and the Aztecs salvage everything they can from Columbus' ships.
Could the Aztecs do something useful with this new technological knowledge; applying and reusing it for their gain, becoming the major power of the Americas and ending up sending their own expedition back to Spain?
In this alternate history, with no news of Columbus, Europe assumes that he is lost and nobody sends another expedition, deeming the very idea foolish. The European powers focus on Africa and Asia.
EDIT: To address some points:
I'm only dealing with Columbus first arrival. What happened after that in our history won't happen in this alternate version. Please don't answer with examples of later Conquistadors who came armed to the teeth or what happened when the conquest was in full swing.
This is part of the background of the alternate history that I want to make as believable and coherent with what we know of this time as possible, technology-wise. I'm not going to write the story of this alternate First Contact.
I'm well aware that what defeated the original civilizations of the Americas are the diseases brought by the Europeans, more than weapons or anything else. That's another fact that I'll deal with later.
The expedition that the Aztecs would send back to Spain isn't sent to conquer Spain and Europe, but merely to establish formal contact with the people from the other side of the ocean.
reality-check technology alternate-history
reality-check technology alternate-history
edited yesterday
elemtilas
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
15 hours ago
"becoming the major power of the Americas and ending up sending their own expedition back to Spain?" So, that's two very different questions, there. It's one thing to build 3 ships capable of a trans-Atlantic voyage, it's quite another to become the dominant power in a continent or region. ... and for what it's worth, Spain in 1492 was not the dominant power in Europe, so why do the Aztecs need to become the dominant power in Mesoamerica with this captured technology?
– HopelessN00b
12 hours ago
IIRC, a basic problem is that the ship would have landed in the territory of one of the Aztec's subject peoples. They were not really fond of Aztec rule (human sacrifice tends to do that), which was a major factor in Cortez' later success. So it seems more likely that the technology, if it could be adopted successfully, would be used to overthrow the Aztecs.
– jamesqf
12 hours ago
add a comment |
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
15 hours ago
"becoming the major power of the Americas and ending up sending their own expedition back to Spain?" So, that's two very different questions, there. It's one thing to build 3 ships capable of a trans-Atlantic voyage, it's quite another to become the dominant power in a continent or region. ... and for what it's worth, Spain in 1492 was not the dominant power in Europe, so why do the Aztecs need to become the dominant power in Mesoamerica with this captured technology?
– HopelessN00b
12 hours ago
IIRC, a basic problem is that the ship would have landed in the territory of one of the Aztec's subject peoples. They were not really fond of Aztec rule (human sacrifice tends to do that), which was a major factor in Cortez' later success. So it seems more likely that the technology, if it could be adopted successfully, would be used to overthrow the Aztecs.
– jamesqf
12 hours ago
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
15 hours ago
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
15 hours ago
"becoming the major power of the Americas and ending up sending their own expedition back to Spain?" So, that's two very different questions, there. It's one thing to build 3 ships capable of a trans-Atlantic voyage, it's quite another to become the dominant power in a continent or region. ... and for what it's worth, Spain in 1492 was not the dominant power in Europe, so why do the Aztecs need to become the dominant power in Mesoamerica with this captured technology?
– HopelessN00b
12 hours ago
"becoming the major power of the Americas and ending up sending their own expedition back to Spain?" So, that's two very different questions, there. It's one thing to build 3 ships capable of a trans-Atlantic voyage, it's quite another to become the dominant power in a continent or region. ... and for what it's worth, Spain in 1492 was not the dominant power in Europe, so why do the Aztecs need to become the dominant power in Mesoamerica with this captured technology?
– HopelessN00b
12 hours ago
IIRC, a basic problem is that the ship would have landed in the territory of one of the Aztec's subject peoples. They were not really fond of Aztec rule (human sacrifice tends to do that), which was a major factor in Cortez' later success. So it seems more likely that the technology, if it could be adopted successfully, would be used to overthrow the Aztecs.
– jamesqf
12 hours ago
IIRC, a basic problem is that the ship would have landed in the territory of one of the Aztec's subject peoples. They were not really fond of Aztec rule (human sacrifice tends to do that), which was a major factor in Cortez' later success. So it seems more likely that the technology, if it could be adopted successfully, would be used to overthrow the Aztecs.
– jamesqf
12 hours ago
add a comment |
10 Answers
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The steel technology is probably beyond them, given the processing steps they can never derive from sampling the finished article. Iron & steel would have been a reach.
Ship-building, on the other hand, is right there before them. They had wood, they could likely have reverse engineered ropes & canvas sails using native hemp. They could have gotten by, scaled down, with wood, sail, tar, dowels, copper & stone.
Artillery/musketry, forging technology dependent, would have been tough. Metal-working (mining/smelting especially) would clearly be the critical path. They would also still have to confront the epidemics from the Europeans which did inevitably decimate their population.
2
This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
yesterday
27
write a better one.
– theRiley
yesterday
4
Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
yesterday
3
@theRiley You are wrong. Sorry. A blacksmith specialises in working refined metal. At a stretch, he may have a working knowledge of bloomery or smelting, but he certainly isn't a prospector nor a miner.
– Arkenstein XII
yesterday
4
The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
19
down vote
In order for the Aztec Empire to become a legitimate force in the international community, it would have needed massive structural reformation to reduce internal fractiousness and to build learning, finance, and other institutions needed to transition from a bronze-age kingdom to a middle-ages kingdom.
The Aztec society lacked organized advanced schooling in technology. They didn't have the scientific method. Any investigation would have been haphazard and lengthy before they figured out how to, for example, make steel and gunpowder... even with the help of prisoners (whose language was utterly unfamiliar).
More importantly, the Aztecs lacked institutions like banks and companies and associated knowledge like employment practices and good accounting. This prevented labor specialization, which keeps non-farmers eating while they work their way up a skills chain, open a shop, and figure out better and cheaper ways to find and smelt that ore.
In turn, this means that the Aztec-created weapons and ships would have been (relatively) more expensive and of poorer quality than they could have been.
Finally, the Aztec Empire was a delicate political entity - subject peoples like the Tlascalans rebelled at the first opportunity. It's reasonable to expect rivals to obtain these (relatively) advanced weapons also, perhaps triggering a series of crippling civil wars.
That's many decades of political, economic, and social changes that need to happen. and there may not be time for it -- somebody else will get the idea of let's-just-sail-there-and-cut-out-the-middlemen and discover the Americas within a decade or two...and return.
2
There were very few advanced schools of technology in the XIV century. Maybe the School of Sagres in Portugal, the portuguese naval tech research center. European universities at this time were theology schools with alchemy, law and astrology classes. And none of the european (or turkish for the matter) schools used the scientific method as understood today, or even as understood in Newton's days.
– Geronimo
12 hours ago
1
@Geronimo true, and those rudimentary institutions, with their rudimentary studies, seem far ahead of anything that Bronze-age kingdoms could create or sustain.
– user535733
12 hours ago
1
If I remember correctly, a Portuguese ship got accidentally blown off course to Brazil within a few decades of Columbus' first voyage. So, once that happened, further voyages of discovery would probably have followed anyway.
– Daniel Schepler
11 hours ago
1
You could reword this as a technology answer; the shape government and society is technology too, but that isn't available from a handful of ships.
– Yakk
10 hours ago
I disagree that the medieval universities were beyond what bronze-age societies could support. Ancient Egypt had a permanent educational system to train their engeneers/bureucrats and, more relevant to the question, both the incas and aztecs had institutions, in their capitals, to provide the analogue to superior education, that was quite similar to western curriculum: aztec law, aztec theology, magic (astrology/alchemy/medicine) and some engeneering. Universities are note relevant to question, frankly.
– Geronimo
7 hours ago
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15
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As previously stated, sailing technology is the most easily assimilated technology that can be gleaned from the capture of Columbus' men.
However what has not been touched on is this: Mesoamerican peoples already had knowledge of bronze working prior to the arrival of Columbus, but the technology was exclusively used for the manufacture of ornamental items. Upon salvaging bronze cannon and arquebus from the captured ships, it could become apparent to the indigenous peoples that bronze can be useful for the manufacture of tools. Effectively kick-starting what would be recognisable to Eurasian eyes as a bronze-age.
If someone aboard the ships happened to know how to make gunpowder, it is possible that this knowledge plus bronze tools and sailing technology could result in a Mesoamerican maritime bronze-age empire who possess cannons.
Furthermore, many of the crewmembers of the ill-fated 1492 voyage were literate. There is a good chance that written language would be readily adopted by the Aztecs, which aids significantly in the administration of an Empire.
6
By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
21 hours ago
3
Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
19 hours ago
6
Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
18 hours ago
4
Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
17 hours ago
What "knowledge of bronze working"? Quotation needed. AFAIK the Aztecs were in the late stone age, with some knowledge of working metals which could be found in native state such as gold and silver. @HopelessN00b: There is no such thing as a 10 pound sword -- a 4 or 4.5 pound sword was a very heavy sword, a normal longsword was usually around 3 pounds.
– AlexP
13 hours ago
|
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What technology could the European explorer have on board upon arrival which could be useful for a reverse expedition?
Gun powder: usually it was not produced in loco, but rather carried in barrels. I doubt knowledge of how to make it was common. Unlikely it could be transferred. Without this no way to learn usage of fire weapon. Also crafting fire weapons requires refined metallurgy, of the type hardly present on board.
Non fire weapons: for this I doubt that the weapons of an easily beaten group could make a great impression on the Emperor. However, it's possible that elementary knowledge of blacksmithing was in possession of part of the crew, as it was necessary at least to perform ordinary maintenance.
Ship making: wooden ships were easily damaged, and knowledge on how to fix them had to be present on board. Usually there was even a carpenter. Highly likely.
Navigation: learning how to maneuver a large ship was not something to be learned in few months. It required practice and dedication. But it is likely it could be taught. Using navigation instruments to determine the position was probably an art only known by the captain and the officials. This could also be transmitted.
Now, having established the technologies, we have to determine if the captive crew would agree to teach them to the indigenous. I have few doubts that a low level crew member would happily save his life in exchange of details on what he knows.
But the others, in possession of important knowledge, would probably evaluate the possibility of taking their secret in the grave. Those were times when maps with important secrets (like the location of newly discovered islands or trade route) were valued as state secret, and thus official were probably conscious of the risk behind disclosing such and similar secret. It would be a matter of using subtle social engineering to convince the prisoners to cooperate.
But I think that, before venturing into Europe, the Aztec would have probably devoted their attention to the rest of the American continent, which posed less risks than a transoceanic navigation.
Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
17 hours ago
Maps, sailing, medicine, food preservation. Its pretty much like giving columbus a smartphone and a modern teenager and reinventing the digital age.
– anon
13 hours ago
2
It doesn't have to be secret to be uncommon knowledge. You need to remember they didn't have google back then.
– Ryan_L
13 hours ago
1
@Yakk, could you tell without the internet or reference books how to find and refine saltpeter and sulfur? Or how to grind powder without an explosion in the powder mill?
– o.m.
9 hours ago
@Yakk, making gunpowder is more than just "pour 15 cups saltpeter, 3 cups charcoal, and 2 cups sulfur into a large bowl. Stir well." If you try to make gunpowder knowing only the proportions of the ingredients, the likely outcome is somewhere on the range from "blow yourself up" to "make something that emits a cloud of foul smoke" to "produce low-quality serpentine powder" at best. Producing a proper corned powder with a consistent grain size takes quite a bit of specialist knowledge.
– Mark
5 hours ago
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4
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Not exactly a technology, but if they had captured some Spanish horses they could use them to improve communication within their empire, expand their borders in Mesoamerica and be better prepared for the next wave of Europeans once they arrive. While the stories of Americans believing Europeans to be centaurs or gods because of horses are probably exaggerated, they did play a role in convincing some tribes to join the conquistadors and in intimidating the Aztec warriors.
Also as others mentioned sailing technology already, they could load horses on their ships and show up in Europe in style.
New contributor
Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
15 hours ago
according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
14 hours ago
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up vote
2
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You can't reverse-engineer steel or gunpowder unless you can somehow capture manufacturing facilities which a typical conquistador did not carry with themselves. Those were conquerors relying on stock they brought from their homes. if they were up to mine iron ore or saltpetre, that might have pointed the Aztecs to the right direction, but as far as I can recall, those guys were only after precious metals, spices and such.
1
They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
19 hours ago
1
@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
19 hours ago
Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
19 hours ago
@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
18 hours ago
Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
18 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
The wood working, rope making and weaving technologies of Europe differed mainly in terms of scale, tools used, mechanisation, and standardisation rather than in matters of underlying technique so the Aztecs could almost certainly pick up the particulars necessary to build ships capable of crossing the Atlantic if they decided it was a priority.
Beyond that it depends a great deal on how much information the Aztecs could get from the crew about basic industrial chemistry, for example the recipe for gunpowder was not any great secret in Europe at the time. Nor were any number of other pieces of industrial chemistry like the extraction of iron, lead, copper, and tin, from various ores, or the proportions for making bronze, solder, pewter, and steel, things like amalgam and invar were still trade secrets though.
Whether any of the crew knew these things is a different matter though. I don't know the exact composition of the crew of the Santa Maria, Nina, and Pinto, if Columbus had ex-miners and/or foundry workers in the crew then many possibilities open up. They could identify ores in the field and the local pottery kilns would be sufficient to being scaled up for metal production, they could produce enough heat. Gunpowder can be made in the field, in a rough and ready rule of thumb way, using raw materials that aren't impossible to get in quantity in the Caribbean area, officers of any military force of the era should have known a couple of basic recipes for use in exigent circumstances.
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Yes, they can do that. But they would need wise emperor and something like culture shock. So your wise leader wins, but understands, that his people are ages behind in technology and that will mean end of his empire, should there be real war.
He decides, Aztecs need change and fast. He uses bribes, titles, marriage and piles of gold or torture to get as much information and cooperation from captured Spanish. With said information and deep pockets of emperor, mining and metalworking grow by days. Carpenters try to build ever bigger ships. Soon all needed components of gunpowder are found and wisemen and priests labor day and night to perfect formula and start production.
In few short years Empire is reborn and stronger.
Problem is Spanish had little knowledge how to cure and prevent diseases. Maybe one of your priests would invent variolation to prevent smallpox, problem is they had no cows.. alternative animal? Dogs, cats, horses of Spanish.
Invade Spain, that would have close to zero chance to have any good results. Spain would be too strong for them to invade alone and with help from other countries... They would only paint big target for crusade.
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It would be very hard to salvage the naval tech. Shipbuilding demands the right trees and iron/bronze metallurgy to manufacture both the tools and the critical metal parts of a oceanfaring ship. And even if there was a blacksmith among the crew members you will have no iron because what you need is a miner that also knows prospection. Was there europeans that knew how to find virgin ore veins to mine in the XIV century? I don't know but I would bet there wasn't since most mines in Europe were old, ancient mining regions, some from the roman times, other slowly discovered during the middle ages. There was no science and art of finding good places for mining in Europe, geology is hundreds of years in the future. So, no iron.
In the case of bronze you have to find a north american geology map that shows where is tin and where is copper and see if it was viable for the aztec to have access to both mineral resources at the same time. Most probably it wouldn't.
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Not much
Let's assume the best case for the Aztecs-they kill all of Columbus' crew, have all the hardware available for inspection, and contract no European diseases. Technology comes as a whole interrelated package. People say the Aztecs could have understood the ship technology. They probably could understand the construction, but not why the ships were designed as they were. As others have said, you can't understand how to make steel just by looking at it, so you can't steal the ship designs in the places steel was used to hold the ship together. They might realize gunpowder was what made the muskets work, but figuring out how to make gunpowder seems difficult. It might have made them use wheels for real work instead of just children's toys. There would clearly be an explosion in technology, but Europe was progressing as well.
I can't imagine it taking more than a few decades before the next European ship came to the Americas. Magellan was only 30 years later and his crew sailed around the world. You can't have steel that fast, which means no useful guns. Gunpowder is not very useful without steel to contain it. The next few ships would have brought the diseases, so I suspect this scenario just delays the conquest of the Americas by a few decades.
add a comment |
10 Answers
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10 Answers
10
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
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up vote
21
down vote
The steel technology is probably beyond them, given the processing steps they can never derive from sampling the finished article. Iron & steel would have been a reach.
Ship-building, on the other hand, is right there before them. They had wood, they could likely have reverse engineered ropes & canvas sails using native hemp. They could have gotten by, scaled down, with wood, sail, tar, dowels, copper & stone.
Artillery/musketry, forging technology dependent, would have been tough. Metal-working (mining/smelting especially) would clearly be the critical path. They would also still have to confront the epidemics from the Europeans which did inevitably decimate their population.
2
This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
yesterday
27
write a better one.
– theRiley
yesterday
4
Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
yesterday
3
@theRiley You are wrong. Sorry. A blacksmith specialises in working refined metal. At a stretch, he may have a working knowledge of bloomery or smelting, but he certainly isn't a prospector nor a miner.
– Arkenstein XII
yesterday
4
The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
21
down vote
The steel technology is probably beyond them, given the processing steps they can never derive from sampling the finished article. Iron & steel would have been a reach.
Ship-building, on the other hand, is right there before them. They had wood, they could likely have reverse engineered ropes & canvas sails using native hemp. They could have gotten by, scaled down, with wood, sail, tar, dowels, copper & stone.
Artillery/musketry, forging technology dependent, would have been tough. Metal-working (mining/smelting especially) would clearly be the critical path. They would also still have to confront the epidemics from the Europeans which did inevitably decimate their population.
2
This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
yesterday
27
write a better one.
– theRiley
yesterday
4
Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
yesterday
3
@theRiley You are wrong. Sorry. A blacksmith specialises in working refined metal. At a stretch, he may have a working knowledge of bloomery or smelting, but he certainly isn't a prospector nor a miner.
– Arkenstein XII
yesterday
4
The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
21
down vote
up vote
21
down vote
The steel technology is probably beyond them, given the processing steps they can never derive from sampling the finished article. Iron & steel would have been a reach.
Ship-building, on the other hand, is right there before them. They had wood, they could likely have reverse engineered ropes & canvas sails using native hemp. They could have gotten by, scaled down, with wood, sail, tar, dowels, copper & stone.
Artillery/musketry, forging technology dependent, would have been tough. Metal-working (mining/smelting especially) would clearly be the critical path. They would also still have to confront the epidemics from the Europeans which did inevitably decimate their population.
The steel technology is probably beyond them, given the processing steps they can never derive from sampling the finished article. Iron & steel would have been a reach.
Ship-building, on the other hand, is right there before them. They had wood, they could likely have reverse engineered ropes & canvas sails using native hemp. They could have gotten by, scaled down, with wood, sail, tar, dowels, copper & stone.
Artillery/musketry, forging technology dependent, would have been tough. Metal-working (mining/smelting especially) would clearly be the critical path. They would also still have to confront the epidemics from the Europeans which did inevitably decimate their population.
edited 13 hours ago
answered yesterday
theRiley
1,42714
1,42714
2
This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
yesterday
27
write a better one.
– theRiley
yesterday
4
Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
yesterday
3
@theRiley You are wrong. Sorry. A blacksmith specialises in working refined metal. At a stretch, he may have a working knowledge of bloomery or smelting, but he certainly isn't a prospector nor a miner.
– Arkenstein XII
yesterday
4
The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
2
This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
yesterday
27
write a better one.
– theRiley
yesterday
4
Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
yesterday
3
@theRiley You are wrong. Sorry. A blacksmith specialises in working refined metal. At a stretch, he may have a working knowledge of bloomery or smelting, but he certainly isn't a prospector nor a miner.
– Arkenstein XII
yesterday
4
The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
yesterday
2
2
This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
yesterday
This is like 5% of an answer. I don't disagree with anything, but I wonder a) how you came to your conclusions. b) how this is going to help them becoming a major power? My guess is that this is the result of 5 minutes of brain storming. There is nothing wrong with that, but if the OP can't do that themselves, they have to give up the project because there is no hope. I wrote a comment saying that a real answer needs to be basically a book so I don't blame you for not doing that, but perhaps consider offering a deeper insight into your points
– Raditz_35
yesterday
27
27
write a better one.
– theRiley
yesterday
write a better one.
– theRiley
yesterday
4
4
Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
yesterday
Firearms, both cannon and arquebuses, were made of bronze in the time of the conquistadores. Iron guns came much later.
– AlexP
yesterday
3
3
@theRiley You are wrong. Sorry. A blacksmith specialises in working refined metal. At a stretch, he may have a working knowledge of bloomery or smelting, but he certainly isn't a prospector nor a miner.
– Arkenstein XII
yesterday
@theRiley You are wrong. Sorry. A blacksmith specialises in working refined metal. At a stretch, he may have a working knowledge of bloomery or smelting, but he certainly isn't a prospector nor a miner.
– Arkenstein XII
yesterday
4
4
The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
yesterday
The list of people who sailed with Columbus does not include a blacksmith, only a silver smith.
– Brythan
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
up vote
19
down vote
In order for the Aztec Empire to become a legitimate force in the international community, it would have needed massive structural reformation to reduce internal fractiousness and to build learning, finance, and other institutions needed to transition from a bronze-age kingdom to a middle-ages kingdom.
The Aztec society lacked organized advanced schooling in technology. They didn't have the scientific method. Any investigation would have been haphazard and lengthy before they figured out how to, for example, make steel and gunpowder... even with the help of prisoners (whose language was utterly unfamiliar).
More importantly, the Aztecs lacked institutions like banks and companies and associated knowledge like employment practices and good accounting. This prevented labor specialization, which keeps non-farmers eating while they work their way up a skills chain, open a shop, and figure out better and cheaper ways to find and smelt that ore.
In turn, this means that the Aztec-created weapons and ships would have been (relatively) more expensive and of poorer quality than they could have been.
Finally, the Aztec Empire was a delicate political entity - subject peoples like the Tlascalans rebelled at the first opportunity. It's reasonable to expect rivals to obtain these (relatively) advanced weapons also, perhaps triggering a series of crippling civil wars.
That's many decades of political, economic, and social changes that need to happen. and there may not be time for it -- somebody else will get the idea of let's-just-sail-there-and-cut-out-the-middlemen and discover the Americas within a decade or two...and return.
2
There were very few advanced schools of technology in the XIV century. Maybe the School of Sagres in Portugal, the portuguese naval tech research center. European universities at this time were theology schools with alchemy, law and astrology classes. And none of the european (or turkish for the matter) schools used the scientific method as understood today, or even as understood in Newton's days.
– Geronimo
12 hours ago
1
@Geronimo true, and those rudimentary institutions, with their rudimentary studies, seem far ahead of anything that Bronze-age kingdoms could create or sustain.
– user535733
12 hours ago
1
If I remember correctly, a Portuguese ship got accidentally blown off course to Brazil within a few decades of Columbus' first voyage. So, once that happened, further voyages of discovery would probably have followed anyway.
– Daniel Schepler
11 hours ago
1
You could reword this as a technology answer; the shape government and society is technology too, but that isn't available from a handful of ships.
– Yakk
10 hours ago
I disagree that the medieval universities were beyond what bronze-age societies could support. Ancient Egypt had a permanent educational system to train their engeneers/bureucrats and, more relevant to the question, both the incas and aztecs had institutions, in their capitals, to provide the analogue to superior education, that was quite similar to western curriculum: aztec law, aztec theology, magic (astrology/alchemy/medicine) and some engeneering. Universities are note relevant to question, frankly.
– Geronimo
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
19
down vote
In order for the Aztec Empire to become a legitimate force in the international community, it would have needed massive structural reformation to reduce internal fractiousness and to build learning, finance, and other institutions needed to transition from a bronze-age kingdom to a middle-ages kingdom.
The Aztec society lacked organized advanced schooling in technology. They didn't have the scientific method. Any investigation would have been haphazard and lengthy before they figured out how to, for example, make steel and gunpowder... even with the help of prisoners (whose language was utterly unfamiliar).
More importantly, the Aztecs lacked institutions like banks and companies and associated knowledge like employment practices and good accounting. This prevented labor specialization, which keeps non-farmers eating while they work their way up a skills chain, open a shop, and figure out better and cheaper ways to find and smelt that ore.
In turn, this means that the Aztec-created weapons and ships would have been (relatively) more expensive and of poorer quality than they could have been.
Finally, the Aztec Empire was a delicate political entity - subject peoples like the Tlascalans rebelled at the first opportunity. It's reasonable to expect rivals to obtain these (relatively) advanced weapons also, perhaps triggering a series of crippling civil wars.
That's many decades of political, economic, and social changes that need to happen. and there may not be time for it -- somebody else will get the idea of let's-just-sail-there-and-cut-out-the-middlemen and discover the Americas within a decade or two...and return.
2
There were very few advanced schools of technology in the XIV century. Maybe the School of Sagres in Portugal, the portuguese naval tech research center. European universities at this time were theology schools with alchemy, law and astrology classes. And none of the european (or turkish for the matter) schools used the scientific method as understood today, or even as understood in Newton's days.
– Geronimo
12 hours ago
1
@Geronimo true, and those rudimentary institutions, with their rudimentary studies, seem far ahead of anything that Bronze-age kingdoms could create or sustain.
– user535733
12 hours ago
1
If I remember correctly, a Portuguese ship got accidentally blown off course to Brazil within a few decades of Columbus' first voyage. So, once that happened, further voyages of discovery would probably have followed anyway.
– Daniel Schepler
11 hours ago
1
You could reword this as a technology answer; the shape government and society is technology too, but that isn't available from a handful of ships.
– Yakk
10 hours ago
I disagree that the medieval universities were beyond what bronze-age societies could support. Ancient Egypt had a permanent educational system to train their engeneers/bureucrats and, more relevant to the question, both the incas and aztecs had institutions, in their capitals, to provide the analogue to superior education, that was quite similar to western curriculum: aztec law, aztec theology, magic (astrology/alchemy/medicine) and some engeneering. Universities are note relevant to question, frankly.
– Geronimo
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
19
down vote
up vote
19
down vote
In order for the Aztec Empire to become a legitimate force in the international community, it would have needed massive structural reformation to reduce internal fractiousness and to build learning, finance, and other institutions needed to transition from a bronze-age kingdom to a middle-ages kingdom.
The Aztec society lacked organized advanced schooling in technology. They didn't have the scientific method. Any investigation would have been haphazard and lengthy before they figured out how to, for example, make steel and gunpowder... even with the help of prisoners (whose language was utterly unfamiliar).
More importantly, the Aztecs lacked institutions like banks and companies and associated knowledge like employment practices and good accounting. This prevented labor specialization, which keeps non-farmers eating while they work their way up a skills chain, open a shop, and figure out better and cheaper ways to find and smelt that ore.
In turn, this means that the Aztec-created weapons and ships would have been (relatively) more expensive and of poorer quality than they could have been.
Finally, the Aztec Empire was a delicate political entity - subject peoples like the Tlascalans rebelled at the first opportunity. It's reasonable to expect rivals to obtain these (relatively) advanced weapons also, perhaps triggering a series of crippling civil wars.
That's many decades of political, economic, and social changes that need to happen. and there may not be time for it -- somebody else will get the idea of let's-just-sail-there-and-cut-out-the-middlemen and discover the Americas within a decade or two...and return.
In order for the Aztec Empire to become a legitimate force in the international community, it would have needed massive structural reformation to reduce internal fractiousness and to build learning, finance, and other institutions needed to transition from a bronze-age kingdom to a middle-ages kingdom.
The Aztec society lacked organized advanced schooling in technology. They didn't have the scientific method. Any investigation would have been haphazard and lengthy before they figured out how to, for example, make steel and gunpowder... even with the help of prisoners (whose language was utterly unfamiliar).
More importantly, the Aztecs lacked institutions like banks and companies and associated knowledge like employment practices and good accounting. This prevented labor specialization, which keeps non-farmers eating while they work their way up a skills chain, open a shop, and figure out better and cheaper ways to find and smelt that ore.
In turn, this means that the Aztec-created weapons and ships would have been (relatively) more expensive and of poorer quality than they could have been.
Finally, the Aztec Empire was a delicate political entity - subject peoples like the Tlascalans rebelled at the first opportunity. It's reasonable to expect rivals to obtain these (relatively) advanced weapons also, perhaps triggering a series of crippling civil wars.
That's many decades of political, economic, and social changes that need to happen. and there may not be time for it -- somebody else will get the idea of let's-just-sail-there-and-cut-out-the-middlemen and discover the Americas within a decade or two...and return.
edited yesterday
Sava
1,101316
1,101316
answered yesterday
user535733
6,2051229
6,2051229
2
There were very few advanced schools of technology in the XIV century. Maybe the School of Sagres in Portugal, the portuguese naval tech research center. European universities at this time were theology schools with alchemy, law and astrology classes. And none of the european (or turkish for the matter) schools used the scientific method as understood today, or even as understood in Newton's days.
– Geronimo
12 hours ago
1
@Geronimo true, and those rudimentary institutions, with their rudimentary studies, seem far ahead of anything that Bronze-age kingdoms could create or sustain.
– user535733
12 hours ago
1
If I remember correctly, a Portuguese ship got accidentally blown off course to Brazil within a few decades of Columbus' first voyage. So, once that happened, further voyages of discovery would probably have followed anyway.
– Daniel Schepler
11 hours ago
1
You could reword this as a technology answer; the shape government and society is technology too, but that isn't available from a handful of ships.
– Yakk
10 hours ago
I disagree that the medieval universities were beyond what bronze-age societies could support. Ancient Egypt had a permanent educational system to train their engeneers/bureucrats and, more relevant to the question, both the incas and aztecs had institutions, in their capitals, to provide the analogue to superior education, that was quite similar to western curriculum: aztec law, aztec theology, magic (astrology/alchemy/medicine) and some engeneering. Universities are note relevant to question, frankly.
– Geronimo
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
2
There were very few advanced schools of technology in the XIV century. Maybe the School of Sagres in Portugal, the portuguese naval tech research center. European universities at this time were theology schools with alchemy, law and astrology classes. And none of the european (or turkish for the matter) schools used the scientific method as understood today, or even as understood in Newton's days.
– Geronimo
12 hours ago
1
@Geronimo true, and those rudimentary institutions, with their rudimentary studies, seem far ahead of anything that Bronze-age kingdoms could create or sustain.
– user535733
12 hours ago
1
If I remember correctly, a Portuguese ship got accidentally blown off course to Brazil within a few decades of Columbus' first voyage. So, once that happened, further voyages of discovery would probably have followed anyway.
– Daniel Schepler
11 hours ago
1
You could reword this as a technology answer; the shape government and society is technology too, but that isn't available from a handful of ships.
– Yakk
10 hours ago
I disagree that the medieval universities were beyond what bronze-age societies could support. Ancient Egypt had a permanent educational system to train their engeneers/bureucrats and, more relevant to the question, both the incas and aztecs had institutions, in their capitals, to provide the analogue to superior education, that was quite similar to western curriculum: aztec law, aztec theology, magic (astrology/alchemy/medicine) and some engeneering. Universities are note relevant to question, frankly.
– Geronimo
7 hours ago
2
2
There were very few advanced schools of technology in the XIV century. Maybe the School of Sagres in Portugal, the portuguese naval tech research center. European universities at this time were theology schools with alchemy, law and astrology classes. And none of the european (or turkish for the matter) schools used the scientific method as understood today, or even as understood in Newton's days.
– Geronimo
12 hours ago
There were very few advanced schools of technology in the XIV century. Maybe the School of Sagres in Portugal, the portuguese naval tech research center. European universities at this time were theology schools with alchemy, law and astrology classes. And none of the european (or turkish for the matter) schools used the scientific method as understood today, or even as understood in Newton's days.
– Geronimo
12 hours ago
1
1
@Geronimo true, and those rudimentary institutions, with their rudimentary studies, seem far ahead of anything that Bronze-age kingdoms could create or sustain.
– user535733
12 hours ago
@Geronimo true, and those rudimentary institutions, with their rudimentary studies, seem far ahead of anything that Bronze-age kingdoms could create or sustain.
– user535733
12 hours ago
1
1
If I remember correctly, a Portuguese ship got accidentally blown off course to Brazil within a few decades of Columbus' first voyage. So, once that happened, further voyages of discovery would probably have followed anyway.
– Daniel Schepler
11 hours ago
If I remember correctly, a Portuguese ship got accidentally blown off course to Brazil within a few decades of Columbus' first voyage. So, once that happened, further voyages of discovery would probably have followed anyway.
– Daniel Schepler
11 hours ago
1
1
You could reword this as a technology answer; the shape government and society is technology too, but that isn't available from a handful of ships.
– Yakk
10 hours ago
You could reword this as a technology answer; the shape government and society is technology too, but that isn't available from a handful of ships.
– Yakk
10 hours ago
I disagree that the medieval universities were beyond what bronze-age societies could support. Ancient Egypt had a permanent educational system to train their engeneers/bureucrats and, more relevant to the question, both the incas and aztecs had institutions, in their capitals, to provide the analogue to superior education, that was quite similar to western curriculum: aztec law, aztec theology, magic (astrology/alchemy/medicine) and some engeneering. Universities are note relevant to question, frankly.
– Geronimo
7 hours ago
I disagree that the medieval universities were beyond what bronze-age societies could support. Ancient Egypt had a permanent educational system to train their engeneers/bureucrats and, more relevant to the question, both the incas and aztecs had institutions, in their capitals, to provide the analogue to superior education, that was quite similar to western curriculum: aztec law, aztec theology, magic (astrology/alchemy/medicine) and some engeneering. Universities are note relevant to question, frankly.
– Geronimo
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
15
down vote
As previously stated, sailing technology is the most easily assimilated technology that can be gleaned from the capture of Columbus' men.
However what has not been touched on is this: Mesoamerican peoples already had knowledge of bronze working prior to the arrival of Columbus, but the technology was exclusively used for the manufacture of ornamental items. Upon salvaging bronze cannon and arquebus from the captured ships, it could become apparent to the indigenous peoples that bronze can be useful for the manufacture of tools. Effectively kick-starting what would be recognisable to Eurasian eyes as a bronze-age.
If someone aboard the ships happened to know how to make gunpowder, it is possible that this knowledge plus bronze tools and sailing technology could result in a Mesoamerican maritime bronze-age empire who possess cannons.
Furthermore, many of the crewmembers of the ill-fated 1492 voyage were literate. There is a good chance that written language would be readily adopted by the Aztecs, which aids significantly in the administration of an Empire.
6
By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
21 hours ago
3
Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
19 hours ago
6
Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
18 hours ago
4
Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
17 hours ago
What "knowledge of bronze working"? Quotation needed. AFAIK the Aztecs were in the late stone age, with some knowledge of working metals which could be found in native state such as gold and silver. @HopelessN00b: There is no such thing as a 10 pound sword -- a 4 or 4.5 pound sword was a very heavy sword, a normal longsword was usually around 3 pounds.
– AlexP
13 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
15
down vote
As previously stated, sailing technology is the most easily assimilated technology that can be gleaned from the capture of Columbus' men.
However what has not been touched on is this: Mesoamerican peoples already had knowledge of bronze working prior to the arrival of Columbus, but the technology was exclusively used for the manufacture of ornamental items. Upon salvaging bronze cannon and arquebus from the captured ships, it could become apparent to the indigenous peoples that bronze can be useful for the manufacture of tools. Effectively kick-starting what would be recognisable to Eurasian eyes as a bronze-age.
If someone aboard the ships happened to know how to make gunpowder, it is possible that this knowledge plus bronze tools and sailing technology could result in a Mesoamerican maritime bronze-age empire who possess cannons.
Furthermore, many of the crewmembers of the ill-fated 1492 voyage were literate. There is a good chance that written language would be readily adopted by the Aztecs, which aids significantly in the administration of an Empire.
6
By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
21 hours ago
3
Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
19 hours ago
6
Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
18 hours ago
4
Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
17 hours ago
What "knowledge of bronze working"? Quotation needed. AFAIK the Aztecs were in the late stone age, with some knowledge of working metals which could be found in native state such as gold and silver. @HopelessN00b: There is no such thing as a 10 pound sword -- a 4 or 4.5 pound sword was a very heavy sword, a normal longsword was usually around 3 pounds.
– AlexP
13 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
15
down vote
up vote
15
down vote
As previously stated, sailing technology is the most easily assimilated technology that can be gleaned from the capture of Columbus' men.
However what has not been touched on is this: Mesoamerican peoples already had knowledge of bronze working prior to the arrival of Columbus, but the technology was exclusively used for the manufacture of ornamental items. Upon salvaging bronze cannon and arquebus from the captured ships, it could become apparent to the indigenous peoples that bronze can be useful for the manufacture of tools. Effectively kick-starting what would be recognisable to Eurasian eyes as a bronze-age.
If someone aboard the ships happened to know how to make gunpowder, it is possible that this knowledge plus bronze tools and sailing technology could result in a Mesoamerican maritime bronze-age empire who possess cannons.
Furthermore, many of the crewmembers of the ill-fated 1492 voyage were literate. There is a good chance that written language would be readily adopted by the Aztecs, which aids significantly in the administration of an Empire.
As previously stated, sailing technology is the most easily assimilated technology that can be gleaned from the capture of Columbus' men.
However what has not been touched on is this: Mesoamerican peoples already had knowledge of bronze working prior to the arrival of Columbus, but the technology was exclusively used for the manufacture of ornamental items. Upon salvaging bronze cannon and arquebus from the captured ships, it could become apparent to the indigenous peoples that bronze can be useful for the manufacture of tools. Effectively kick-starting what would be recognisable to Eurasian eyes as a bronze-age.
If someone aboard the ships happened to know how to make gunpowder, it is possible that this knowledge plus bronze tools and sailing technology could result in a Mesoamerican maritime bronze-age empire who possess cannons.
Furthermore, many of the crewmembers of the ill-fated 1492 voyage were literate. There is a good chance that written language would be readily adopted by the Aztecs, which aids significantly in the administration of an Empire.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Arkenstein XII
1,431218
1,431218
6
By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
21 hours ago
3
Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
19 hours ago
6
Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
18 hours ago
4
Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
17 hours ago
What "knowledge of bronze working"? Quotation needed. AFAIK the Aztecs were in the late stone age, with some knowledge of working metals which could be found in native state such as gold and silver. @HopelessN00b: There is no such thing as a 10 pound sword -- a 4 or 4.5 pound sword was a very heavy sword, a normal longsword was usually around 3 pounds.
– AlexP
13 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
6
By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
21 hours ago
3
Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
19 hours ago
6
Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
18 hours ago
4
Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
17 hours ago
What "knowledge of bronze working"? Quotation needed. AFAIK the Aztecs were in the late stone age, with some knowledge of working metals which could be found in native state such as gold and silver. @HopelessN00b: There is no such thing as a 10 pound sword -- a 4 or 4.5 pound sword was a very heavy sword, a normal longsword was usually around 3 pounds.
– AlexP
13 hours ago
6
6
By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
21 hours ago
By written language, you mean the use of an alphabet? Aztecs did have a writting system.
– Pierre Arlaud
21 hours ago
3
3
Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
19 hours ago
Copper and Gold working, using native metals, yes but not bronze and no known metal extraction technology that let them get usable material from ore.
– Ash
19 hours ago
6
6
Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
18 hours ago
Gunpowder was as useful for aztecs as wheels were for the incas: worthless. It almost took no part in the spanish conquest because of. In the extremely wet climate jungle - nothing like modern Mexico - gunpowder was extremely unreliable. Just one week after disembarking, Cortés had only two guns still in fire conditions - if the gunpowder was dry enough.
– Rekesoft
18 hours ago
4
4
Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
17 hours ago
Mesoamerican people were already well aware that metal could be used to make tools, this wouldn’t be new knowledge to them. You could write a book on the reasons why they didn't have more advanced metallurgy (and people have), but it’s much more involved than “they didn’t know better”. In all likelihood, the climate and terrain conspired against the development of advanced metalworking in the new world (metal being heavy, and much of South and Central America being rather punishing, terrain and climate-wise - why schlep a 10 pound sword 500 miles when a 2 pound club works almost as well?)
– HopelessN00b
17 hours ago
What "knowledge of bronze working"? Quotation needed. AFAIK the Aztecs were in the late stone age, with some knowledge of working metals which could be found in native state such as gold and silver. @HopelessN00b: There is no such thing as a 10 pound sword -- a 4 or 4.5 pound sword was a very heavy sword, a normal longsword was usually around 3 pounds.
– AlexP
13 hours ago
What "knowledge of bronze working"? Quotation needed. AFAIK the Aztecs were in the late stone age, with some knowledge of working metals which could be found in native state such as gold and silver. @HopelessN00b: There is no such thing as a 10 pound sword -- a 4 or 4.5 pound sword was a very heavy sword, a normal longsword was usually around 3 pounds.
– AlexP
13 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
What technology could the European explorer have on board upon arrival which could be useful for a reverse expedition?
Gun powder: usually it was not produced in loco, but rather carried in barrels. I doubt knowledge of how to make it was common. Unlikely it could be transferred. Without this no way to learn usage of fire weapon. Also crafting fire weapons requires refined metallurgy, of the type hardly present on board.
Non fire weapons: for this I doubt that the weapons of an easily beaten group could make a great impression on the Emperor. However, it's possible that elementary knowledge of blacksmithing was in possession of part of the crew, as it was necessary at least to perform ordinary maintenance.
Ship making: wooden ships were easily damaged, and knowledge on how to fix them had to be present on board. Usually there was even a carpenter. Highly likely.
Navigation: learning how to maneuver a large ship was not something to be learned in few months. It required practice and dedication. But it is likely it could be taught. Using navigation instruments to determine the position was probably an art only known by the captain and the officials. This could also be transmitted.
Now, having established the technologies, we have to determine if the captive crew would agree to teach them to the indigenous. I have few doubts that a low level crew member would happily save his life in exchange of details on what he knows.
But the others, in possession of important knowledge, would probably evaluate the possibility of taking their secret in the grave. Those were times when maps with important secrets (like the location of newly discovered islands or trade route) were valued as state secret, and thus official were probably conscious of the risk behind disclosing such and similar secret. It would be a matter of using subtle social engineering to convince the prisoners to cooperate.
But I think that, before venturing into Europe, the Aztec would have probably devoted their attention to the rest of the American continent, which posed less risks than a transoceanic navigation.
Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
17 hours ago
Maps, sailing, medicine, food preservation. Its pretty much like giving columbus a smartphone and a modern teenager and reinventing the digital age.
– anon
13 hours ago
2
It doesn't have to be secret to be uncommon knowledge. You need to remember they didn't have google back then.
– Ryan_L
13 hours ago
1
@Yakk, could you tell without the internet or reference books how to find and refine saltpeter and sulfur? Or how to grind powder without an explosion in the powder mill?
– o.m.
9 hours ago
@Yakk, making gunpowder is more than just "pour 15 cups saltpeter, 3 cups charcoal, and 2 cups sulfur into a large bowl. Stir well." If you try to make gunpowder knowing only the proportions of the ingredients, the likely outcome is somewhere on the range from "blow yourself up" to "make something that emits a cloud of foul smoke" to "produce low-quality serpentine powder" at best. Producing a proper corned powder with a consistent grain size takes quite a bit of specialist knowledge.
– Mark
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
What technology could the European explorer have on board upon arrival which could be useful for a reverse expedition?
Gun powder: usually it was not produced in loco, but rather carried in barrels. I doubt knowledge of how to make it was common. Unlikely it could be transferred. Without this no way to learn usage of fire weapon. Also crafting fire weapons requires refined metallurgy, of the type hardly present on board.
Non fire weapons: for this I doubt that the weapons of an easily beaten group could make a great impression on the Emperor. However, it's possible that elementary knowledge of blacksmithing was in possession of part of the crew, as it was necessary at least to perform ordinary maintenance.
Ship making: wooden ships were easily damaged, and knowledge on how to fix them had to be present on board. Usually there was even a carpenter. Highly likely.
Navigation: learning how to maneuver a large ship was not something to be learned in few months. It required practice and dedication. But it is likely it could be taught. Using navigation instruments to determine the position was probably an art only known by the captain and the officials. This could also be transmitted.
Now, having established the technologies, we have to determine if the captive crew would agree to teach them to the indigenous. I have few doubts that a low level crew member would happily save his life in exchange of details on what he knows.
But the others, in possession of important knowledge, would probably evaluate the possibility of taking their secret in the grave. Those were times when maps with important secrets (like the location of newly discovered islands or trade route) were valued as state secret, and thus official were probably conscious of the risk behind disclosing such and similar secret. It would be a matter of using subtle social engineering to convince the prisoners to cooperate.
But I think that, before venturing into Europe, the Aztec would have probably devoted their attention to the rest of the American continent, which posed less risks than a transoceanic navigation.
Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
17 hours ago
Maps, sailing, medicine, food preservation. Its pretty much like giving columbus a smartphone and a modern teenager and reinventing the digital age.
– anon
13 hours ago
2
It doesn't have to be secret to be uncommon knowledge. You need to remember they didn't have google back then.
– Ryan_L
13 hours ago
1
@Yakk, could you tell without the internet or reference books how to find and refine saltpeter and sulfur? Or how to grind powder without an explosion in the powder mill?
– o.m.
9 hours ago
@Yakk, making gunpowder is more than just "pour 15 cups saltpeter, 3 cups charcoal, and 2 cups sulfur into a large bowl. Stir well." If you try to make gunpowder knowing only the proportions of the ingredients, the likely outcome is somewhere on the range from "blow yourself up" to "make something that emits a cloud of foul smoke" to "produce low-quality serpentine powder" at best. Producing a proper corned powder with a consistent grain size takes quite a bit of specialist knowledge.
– Mark
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
up vote
11
down vote
What technology could the European explorer have on board upon arrival which could be useful for a reverse expedition?
Gun powder: usually it was not produced in loco, but rather carried in barrels. I doubt knowledge of how to make it was common. Unlikely it could be transferred. Without this no way to learn usage of fire weapon. Also crafting fire weapons requires refined metallurgy, of the type hardly present on board.
Non fire weapons: for this I doubt that the weapons of an easily beaten group could make a great impression on the Emperor. However, it's possible that elementary knowledge of blacksmithing was in possession of part of the crew, as it was necessary at least to perform ordinary maintenance.
Ship making: wooden ships were easily damaged, and knowledge on how to fix them had to be present on board. Usually there was even a carpenter. Highly likely.
Navigation: learning how to maneuver a large ship was not something to be learned in few months. It required practice and dedication. But it is likely it could be taught. Using navigation instruments to determine the position was probably an art only known by the captain and the officials. This could also be transmitted.
Now, having established the technologies, we have to determine if the captive crew would agree to teach them to the indigenous. I have few doubts that a low level crew member would happily save his life in exchange of details on what he knows.
But the others, in possession of important knowledge, would probably evaluate the possibility of taking their secret in the grave. Those were times when maps with important secrets (like the location of newly discovered islands or trade route) were valued as state secret, and thus official were probably conscious of the risk behind disclosing such and similar secret. It would be a matter of using subtle social engineering to convince the prisoners to cooperate.
But I think that, before venturing into Europe, the Aztec would have probably devoted their attention to the rest of the American continent, which posed less risks than a transoceanic navigation.
What technology could the European explorer have on board upon arrival which could be useful for a reverse expedition?
Gun powder: usually it was not produced in loco, but rather carried in barrels. I doubt knowledge of how to make it was common. Unlikely it could be transferred. Without this no way to learn usage of fire weapon. Also crafting fire weapons requires refined metallurgy, of the type hardly present on board.
Non fire weapons: for this I doubt that the weapons of an easily beaten group could make a great impression on the Emperor. However, it's possible that elementary knowledge of blacksmithing was in possession of part of the crew, as it was necessary at least to perform ordinary maintenance.
Ship making: wooden ships were easily damaged, and knowledge on how to fix them had to be present on board. Usually there was even a carpenter. Highly likely.
Navigation: learning how to maneuver a large ship was not something to be learned in few months. It required practice and dedication. But it is likely it could be taught. Using navigation instruments to determine the position was probably an art only known by the captain and the officials. This could also be transmitted.
Now, having established the technologies, we have to determine if the captive crew would agree to teach them to the indigenous. I have few doubts that a low level crew member would happily save his life in exchange of details on what he knows.
But the others, in possession of important knowledge, would probably evaluate the possibility of taking their secret in the grave. Those were times when maps with important secrets (like the location of newly discovered islands or trade route) were valued as state secret, and thus official were probably conscious of the risk behind disclosing such and similar secret. It would be a matter of using subtle social engineering to convince the prisoners to cooperate.
But I think that, before venturing into Europe, the Aztec would have probably devoted their attention to the rest of the American continent, which posed less risks than a transoceanic navigation.
edited 23 hours ago
dbkk
1032
1032
answered yesterday
L.Dutch♦
69.5k22164335
69.5k22164335
Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
17 hours ago
Maps, sailing, medicine, food preservation. Its pretty much like giving columbus a smartphone and a modern teenager and reinventing the digital age.
– anon
13 hours ago
2
It doesn't have to be secret to be uncommon knowledge. You need to remember they didn't have google back then.
– Ryan_L
13 hours ago
1
@Yakk, could you tell without the internet or reference books how to find and refine saltpeter and sulfur? Or how to grind powder without an explosion in the powder mill?
– o.m.
9 hours ago
@Yakk, making gunpowder is more than just "pour 15 cups saltpeter, 3 cups charcoal, and 2 cups sulfur into a large bowl. Stir well." If you try to make gunpowder knowing only the proportions of the ingredients, the likely outcome is somewhere on the range from "blow yourself up" to "make something that emits a cloud of foul smoke" to "produce low-quality serpentine powder" at best. Producing a proper corned powder with a consistent grain size takes quite a bit of specialist knowledge.
– Mark
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
17 hours ago
Maps, sailing, medicine, food preservation. Its pretty much like giving columbus a smartphone and a modern teenager and reinventing the digital age.
– anon
13 hours ago
2
It doesn't have to be secret to be uncommon knowledge. You need to remember they didn't have google back then.
– Ryan_L
13 hours ago
1
@Yakk, could you tell without the internet or reference books how to find and refine saltpeter and sulfur? Or how to grind powder without an explosion in the powder mill?
– o.m.
9 hours ago
@Yakk, making gunpowder is more than just "pour 15 cups saltpeter, 3 cups charcoal, and 2 cups sulfur into a large bowl. Stir well." If you try to make gunpowder knowing only the proportions of the ingredients, the likely outcome is somewhere on the range from "blow yourself up" to "make something that emits a cloud of foul smoke" to "produce low-quality serpentine powder" at best. Producing a proper corned powder with a consistent grain size takes quite a bit of specialist knowledge.
– Mark
5 hours ago
Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
17 hours ago
Why would gunpowder be a super secret? I mean, basic gunpowder is 15:3:2 saltpeter, charcoal, sulfer. Not exactly complex.
– Yakk
17 hours ago
Maps, sailing, medicine, food preservation. Its pretty much like giving columbus a smartphone and a modern teenager and reinventing the digital age.
– anon
13 hours ago
Maps, sailing, medicine, food preservation. Its pretty much like giving columbus a smartphone and a modern teenager and reinventing the digital age.
– anon
13 hours ago
2
2
It doesn't have to be secret to be uncommon knowledge. You need to remember they didn't have google back then.
– Ryan_L
13 hours ago
It doesn't have to be secret to be uncommon knowledge. You need to remember they didn't have google back then.
– Ryan_L
13 hours ago
1
1
@Yakk, could you tell without the internet or reference books how to find and refine saltpeter and sulfur? Or how to grind powder without an explosion in the powder mill?
– o.m.
9 hours ago
@Yakk, could you tell without the internet or reference books how to find and refine saltpeter and sulfur? Or how to grind powder without an explosion in the powder mill?
– o.m.
9 hours ago
@Yakk, making gunpowder is more than just "pour 15 cups saltpeter, 3 cups charcoal, and 2 cups sulfur into a large bowl. Stir well." If you try to make gunpowder knowing only the proportions of the ingredients, the likely outcome is somewhere on the range from "blow yourself up" to "make something that emits a cloud of foul smoke" to "produce low-quality serpentine powder" at best. Producing a proper corned powder with a consistent grain size takes quite a bit of specialist knowledge.
– Mark
5 hours ago
@Yakk, making gunpowder is more than just "pour 15 cups saltpeter, 3 cups charcoal, and 2 cups sulfur into a large bowl. Stir well." If you try to make gunpowder knowing only the proportions of the ingredients, the likely outcome is somewhere on the range from "blow yourself up" to "make something that emits a cloud of foul smoke" to "produce low-quality serpentine powder" at best. Producing a proper corned powder with a consistent grain size takes quite a bit of specialist knowledge.
– Mark
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Not exactly a technology, but if they had captured some Spanish horses they could use them to improve communication within their empire, expand their borders in Mesoamerica and be better prepared for the next wave of Europeans once they arrive. While the stories of Americans believing Europeans to be centaurs or gods because of horses are probably exaggerated, they did play a role in convincing some tribes to join the conquistadors and in intimidating the Aztec warriors.
Also as others mentioned sailing technology already, they could load horses on their ships and show up in Europe in style.
New contributor
Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
15 hours ago
according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
14 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Not exactly a technology, but if they had captured some Spanish horses they could use them to improve communication within their empire, expand their borders in Mesoamerica and be better prepared for the next wave of Europeans once they arrive. While the stories of Americans believing Europeans to be centaurs or gods because of horses are probably exaggerated, they did play a role in convincing some tribes to join the conquistadors and in intimidating the Aztec warriors.
Also as others mentioned sailing technology already, they could load horses on their ships and show up in Europe in style.
New contributor
Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
15 hours ago
according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
14 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Not exactly a technology, but if they had captured some Spanish horses they could use them to improve communication within their empire, expand their borders in Mesoamerica and be better prepared for the next wave of Europeans once they arrive. While the stories of Americans believing Europeans to be centaurs or gods because of horses are probably exaggerated, they did play a role in convincing some tribes to join the conquistadors and in intimidating the Aztec warriors.
Also as others mentioned sailing technology already, they could load horses on their ships and show up in Europe in style.
New contributor
Not exactly a technology, but if they had captured some Spanish horses they could use them to improve communication within their empire, expand their borders in Mesoamerica and be better prepared for the next wave of Europeans once they arrive. While the stories of Americans believing Europeans to be centaurs or gods because of horses are probably exaggerated, they did play a role in convincing some tribes to join the conquistadors and in intimidating the Aztec warriors.
Also as others mentioned sailing technology already, they could load horses on their ships and show up in Europe in style.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 15 hours ago
Milo Bem
1412
1412
New contributor
New contributor
Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
15 hours ago
according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
14 hours ago
add a comment |
Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
15 hours ago
according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
14 hours ago
Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
15 hours ago
Great idea, I don't know that Columbus had horses though (some of the later expeditions certainly did).
– theinvisibleduck
15 hours ago
according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
14 hours ago
according to this tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/… he had some on his second journey. not sure about the first, but you're already doing alternate history and it's not that big stretch, i think.
– Milo Bem
14 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
You can't reverse-engineer steel or gunpowder unless you can somehow capture manufacturing facilities which a typical conquistador did not carry with themselves. Those were conquerors relying on stock they brought from their homes. if they were up to mine iron ore or saltpetre, that might have pointed the Aztecs to the right direction, but as far as I can recall, those guys were only after precious metals, spices and such.
1
They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
19 hours ago
1
@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
19 hours ago
Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
19 hours ago
@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
18 hours ago
Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
18 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
You can't reverse-engineer steel or gunpowder unless you can somehow capture manufacturing facilities which a typical conquistador did not carry with themselves. Those were conquerors relying on stock they brought from their homes. if they were up to mine iron ore or saltpetre, that might have pointed the Aztecs to the right direction, but as far as I can recall, those guys were only after precious metals, spices and such.
1
They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
19 hours ago
1
@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
19 hours ago
Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
19 hours ago
@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
18 hours ago
Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
18 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
You can't reverse-engineer steel or gunpowder unless you can somehow capture manufacturing facilities which a typical conquistador did not carry with themselves. Those were conquerors relying on stock they brought from their homes. if they were up to mine iron ore or saltpetre, that might have pointed the Aztecs to the right direction, but as far as I can recall, those guys were only after precious metals, spices and such.
You can't reverse-engineer steel or gunpowder unless you can somehow capture manufacturing facilities which a typical conquistador did not carry with themselves. Those were conquerors relying on stock they brought from their homes. if they were up to mine iron ore or saltpetre, that might have pointed the Aztecs to the right direction, but as far as I can recall, those guys were only after precious metals, spices and such.
answered 21 hours ago
mg30rg
1,534819
1,534819
1
They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
19 hours ago
1
@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
19 hours ago
Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
19 hours ago
@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
18 hours ago
Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
18 hours ago
add a comment |
1
They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
19 hours ago
1
@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
19 hours ago
Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
19 hours ago
@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
18 hours ago
Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
18 hours ago
1
1
They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
19 hours ago
They were in fact explorers looking for any resources that would compensate the royal family for their investment in the voyage. What particular skill sets they had along I don't know but a naturalist that can tell you you're holding silver ore can also point out iron ore, coal seams etc... and make saltpetre, probably gunpowder too.
– Ash
19 hours ago
1
1
@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
19 hours ago
@Ash We are talking about reverse engineering here. You can only reverse-engineer stuff you see working. You can't reverse engineer steel manufacturing without seeing a steel smelter working. The end product simply doesn't say anything about the process.
– mg30rg
19 hours ago
Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
19 hours ago
Given that the "survivors are taken prisoner" we're not just talking about reverse engineering.
– Ash
19 hours ago
@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
18 hours ago
@Ash Ok, I must have skipped that part. Althought I strongly doubt that any conquistador was such a renaissance-man to be able to create a usable smelthery with late stone- and early bronze age tools. But again, I might be wrong.
– mg30rg
18 hours ago
Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
18 hours ago
Depends what you want to smelt and how, pottery kilns can and do produce enough heat for bloomery iron and more than enough for lower temperature processes like copper and lead smelting. Blast furnaces or any other large-scale process I quite agree won't happen, not soon anyway, but small charcoal fired smelters aren't too hard to build, not the most efficient technology of the age, but workable.
– Ash
18 hours ago
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2
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The wood working, rope making and weaving technologies of Europe differed mainly in terms of scale, tools used, mechanisation, and standardisation rather than in matters of underlying technique so the Aztecs could almost certainly pick up the particulars necessary to build ships capable of crossing the Atlantic if they decided it was a priority.
Beyond that it depends a great deal on how much information the Aztecs could get from the crew about basic industrial chemistry, for example the recipe for gunpowder was not any great secret in Europe at the time. Nor were any number of other pieces of industrial chemistry like the extraction of iron, lead, copper, and tin, from various ores, or the proportions for making bronze, solder, pewter, and steel, things like amalgam and invar were still trade secrets though.
Whether any of the crew knew these things is a different matter though. I don't know the exact composition of the crew of the Santa Maria, Nina, and Pinto, if Columbus had ex-miners and/or foundry workers in the crew then many possibilities open up. They could identify ores in the field and the local pottery kilns would be sufficient to being scaled up for metal production, they could produce enough heat. Gunpowder can be made in the field, in a rough and ready rule of thumb way, using raw materials that aren't impossible to get in quantity in the Caribbean area, officers of any military force of the era should have known a couple of basic recipes for use in exigent circumstances.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
The wood working, rope making and weaving technologies of Europe differed mainly in terms of scale, tools used, mechanisation, and standardisation rather than in matters of underlying technique so the Aztecs could almost certainly pick up the particulars necessary to build ships capable of crossing the Atlantic if they decided it was a priority.
Beyond that it depends a great deal on how much information the Aztecs could get from the crew about basic industrial chemistry, for example the recipe for gunpowder was not any great secret in Europe at the time. Nor were any number of other pieces of industrial chemistry like the extraction of iron, lead, copper, and tin, from various ores, or the proportions for making bronze, solder, pewter, and steel, things like amalgam and invar were still trade secrets though.
Whether any of the crew knew these things is a different matter though. I don't know the exact composition of the crew of the Santa Maria, Nina, and Pinto, if Columbus had ex-miners and/or foundry workers in the crew then many possibilities open up. They could identify ores in the field and the local pottery kilns would be sufficient to being scaled up for metal production, they could produce enough heat. Gunpowder can be made in the field, in a rough and ready rule of thumb way, using raw materials that aren't impossible to get in quantity in the Caribbean area, officers of any military force of the era should have known a couple of basic recipes for use in exigent circumstances.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
The wood working, rope making and weaving technologies of Europe differed mainly in terms of scale, tools used, mechanisation, and standardisation rather than in matters of underlying technique so the Aztecs could almost certainly pick up the particulars necessary to build ships capable of crossing the Atlantic if they decided it was a priority.
Beyond that it depends a great deal on how much information the Aztecs could get from the crew about basic industrial chemistry, for example the recipe for gunpowder was not any great secret in Europe at the time. Nor were any number of other pieces of industrial chemistry like the extraction of iron, lead, copper, and tin, from various ores, or the proportions for making bronze, solder, pewter, and steel, things like amalgam and invar were still trade secrets though.
Whether any of the crew knew these things is a different matter though. I don't know the exact composition of the crew of the Santa Maria, Nina, and Pinto, if Columbus had ex-miners and/or foundry workers in the crew then many possibilities open up. They could identify ores in the field and the local pottery kilns would be sufficient to being scaled up for metal production, they could produce enough heat. Gunpowder can be made in the field, in a rough and ready rule of thumb way, using raw materials that aren't impossible to get in quantity in the Caribbean area, officers of any military force of the era should have known a couple of basic recipes for use in exigent circumstances.
The wood working, rope making and weaving technologies of Europe differed mainly in terms of scale, tools used, mechanisation, and standardisation rather than in matters of underlying technique so the Aztecs could almost certainly pick up the particulars necessary to build ships capable of crossing the Atlantic if they decided it was a priority.
Beyond that it depends a great deal on how much information the Aztecs could get from the crew about basic industrial chemistry, for example the recipe for gunpowder was not any great secret in Europe at the time. Nor were any number of other pieces of industrial chemistry like the extraction of iron, lead, copper, and tin, from various ores, or the proportions for making bronze, solder, pewter, and steel, things like amalgam and invar were still trade secrets though.
Whether any of the crew knew these things is a different matter though. I don't know the exact composition of the crew of the Santa Maria, Nina, and Pinto, if Columbus had ex-miners and/or foundry workers in the crew then many possibilities open up. They could identify ores in the field and the local pottery kilns would be sufficient to being scaled up for metal production, they could produce enough heat. Gunpowder can be made in the field, in a rough and ready rule of thumb way, using raw materials that aren't impossible to get in quantity in the Caribbean area, officers of any military force of the era should have known a couple of basic recipes for use in exigent circumstances.
answered 19 hours ago
Ash
25.9k465143
25.9k465143
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add a comment |
up vote
1
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Yes, they can do that. But they would need wise emperor and something like culture shock. So your wise leader wins, but understands, that his people are ages behind in technology and that will mean end of his empire, should there be real war.
He decides, Aztecs need change and fast. He uses bribes, titles, marriage and piles of gold or torture to get as much information and cooperation from captured Spanish. With said information and deep pockets of emperor, mining and metalworking grow by days. Carpenters try to build ever bigger ships. Soon all needed components of gunpowder are found and wisemen and priests labor day and night to perfect formula and start production.
In few short years Empire is reborn and stronger.
Problem is Spanish had little knowledge how to cure and prevent diseases. Maybe one of your priests would invent variolation to prevent smallpox, problem is they had no cows.. alternative animal? Dogs, cats, horses of Spanish.
Invade Spain, that would have close to zero chance to have any good results. Spain would be too strong for them to invade alone and with help from other countries... They would only paint big target for crusade.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Yes, they can do that. But they would need wise emperor and something like culture shock. So your wise leader wins, but understands, that his people are ages behind in technology and that will mean end of his empire, should there be real war.
He decides, Aztecs need change and fast. He uses bribes, titles, marriage and piles of gold or torture to get as much information and cooperation from captured Spanish. With said information and deep pockets of emperor, mining and metalworking grow by days. Carpenters try to build ever bigger ships. Soon all needed components of gunpowder are found and wisemen and priests labor day and night to perfect formula and start production.
In few short years Empire is reborn and stronger.
Problem is Spanish had little knowledge how to cure and prevent diseases. Maybe one of your priests would invent variolation to prevent smallpox, problem is they had no cows.. alternative animal? Dogs, cats, horses of Spanish.
Invade Spain, that would have close to zero chance to have any good results. Spain would be too strong for them to invade alone and with help from other countries... They would only paint big target for crusade.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Yes, they can do that. But they would need wise emperor and something like culture shock. So your wise leader wins, but understands, that his people are ages behind in technology and that will mean end of his empire, should there be real war.
He decides, Aztecs need change and fast. He uses bribes, titles, marriage and piles of gold or torture to get as much information and cooperation from captured Spanish. With said information and deep pockets of emperor, mining and metalworking grow by days. Carpenters try to build ever bigger ships. Soon all needed components of gunpowder are found and wisemen and priests labor day and night to perfect formula and start production.
In few short years Empire is reborn and stronger.
Problem is Spanish had little knowledge how to cure and prevent diseases. Maybe one of your priests would invent variolation to prevent smallpox, problem is they had no cows.. alternative animal? Dogs, cats, horses of Spanish.
Invade Spain, that would have close to zero chance to have any good results. Spain would be too strong for them to invade alone and with help from other countries... They would only paint big target for crusade.
Yes, they can do that. But they would need wise emperor and something like culture shock. So your wise leader wins, but understands, that his people are ages behind in technology and that will mean end of his empire, should there be real war.
He decides, Aztecs need change and fast. He uses bribes, titles, marriage and piles of gold or torture to get as much information and cooperation from captured Spanish. With said information and deep pockets of emperor, mining and metalworking grow by days. Carpenters try to build ever bigger ships. Soon all needed components of gunpowder are found and wisemen and priests labor day and night to perfect formula and start production.
In few short years Empire is reborn and stronger.
Problem is Spanish had little knowledge how to cure and prevent diseases. Maybe one of your priests would invent variolation to prevent smallpox, problem is they had no cows.. alternative animal? Dogs, cats, horses of Spanish.
Invade Spain, that would have close to zero chance to have any good results. Spain would be too strong for them to invade alone and with help from other countries... They would only paint big target for crusade.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Artemijs Danilovs
4346
4346
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It would be very hard to salvage the naval tech. Shipbuilding demands the right trees and iron/bronze metallurgy to manufacture both the tools and the critical metal parts of a oceanfaring ship. And even if there was a blacksmith among the crew members you will have no iron because what you need is a miner that also knows prospection. Was there europeans that knew how to find virgin ore veins to mine in the XIV century? I don't know but I would bet there wasn't since most mines in Europe were old, ancient mining regions, some from the roman times, other slowly discovered during the middle ages. There was no science and art of finding good places for mining in Europe, geology is hundreds of years in the future. So, no iron.
In the case of bronze you have to find a north american geology map that shows where is tin and where is copper and see if it was viable for the aztec to have access to both mineral resources at the same time. Most probably it wouldn't.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It would be very hard to salvage the naval tech. Shipbuilding demands the right trees and iron/bronze metallurgy to manufacture both the tools and the critical metal parts of a oceanfaring ship. And even if there was a blacksmith among the crew members you will have no iron because what you need is a miner that also knows prospection. Was there europeans that knew how to find virgin ore veins to mine in the XIV century? I don't know but I would bet there wasn't since most mines in Europe were old, ancient mining regions, some from the roman times, other slowly discovered during the middle ages. There was no science and art of finding good places for mining in Europe, geology is hundreds of years in the future. So, no iron.
In the case of bronze you have to find a north american geology map that shows where is tin and where is copper and see if it was viable for the aztec to have access to both mineral resources at the same time. Most probably it wouldn't.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
It would be very hard to salvage the naval tech. Shipbuilding demands the right trees and iron/bronze metallurgy to manufacture both the tools and the critical metal parts of a oceanfaring ship. And even if there was a blacksmith among the crew members you will have no iron because what you need is a miner that also knows prospection. Was there europeans that knew how to find virgin ore veins to mine in the XIV century? I don't know but I would bet there wasn't since most mines in Europe were old, ancient mining regions, some from the roman times, other slowly discovered during the middle ages. There was no science and art of finding good places for mining in Europe, geology is hundreds of years in the future. So, no iron.
In the case of bronze you have to find a north american geology map that shows where is tin and where is copper and see if it was viable for the aztec to have access to both mineral resources at the same time. Most probably it wouldn't.
It would be very hard to salvage the naval tech. Shipbuilding demands the right trees and iron/bronze metallurgy to manufacture both the tools and the critical metal parts of a oceanfaring ship. And even if there was a blacksmith among the crew members you will have no iron because what you need is a miner that also knows prospection. Was there europeans that knew how to find virgin ore veins to mine in the XIV century? I don't know but I would bet there wasn't since most mines in Europe were old, ancient mining regions, some from the roman times, other slowly discovered during the middle ages. There was no science and art of finding good places for mining in Europe, geology is hundreds of years in the future. So, no iron.
In the case of bronze you have to find a north american geology map that shows where is tin and where is copper and see if it was viable for the aztec to have access to both mineral resources at the same time. Most probably it wouldn't.
answered 12 hours ago
Geronimo
61939
61939
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
Not much
Let's assume the best case for the Aztecs-they kill all of Columbus' crew, have all the hardware available for inspection, and contract no European diseases. Technology comes as a whole interrelated package. People say the Aztecs could have understood the ship technology. They probably could understand the construction, but not why the ships were designed as they were. As others have said, you can't understand how to make steel just by looking at it, so you can't steal the ship designs in the places steel was used to hold the ship together. They might realize gunpowder was what made the muskets work, but figuring out how to make gunpowder seems difficult. It might have made them use wheels for real work instead of just children's toys. There would clearly be an explosion in technology, but Europe was progressing as well.
I can't imagine it taking more than a few decades before the next European ship came to the Americas. Magellan was only 30 years later and his crew sailed around the world. You can't have steel that fast, which means no useful guns. Gunpowder is not very useful without steel to contain it. The next few ships would have brought the diseases, so I suspect this scenario just delays the conquest of the Americas by a few decades.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
Not much
Let's assume the best case for the Aztecs-they kill all of Columbus' crew, have all the hardware available for inspection, and contract no European diseases. Technology comes as a whole interrelated package. People say the Aztecs could have understood the ship technology. They probably could understand the construction, but not why the ships were designed as they were. As others have said, you can't understand how to make steel just by looking at it, so you can't steal the ship designs in the places steel was used to hold the ship together. They might realize gunpowder was what made the muskets work, but figuring out how to make gunpowder seems difficult. It might have made them use wheels for real work instead of just children's toys. There would clearly be an explosion in technology, but Europe was progressing as well.
I can't imagine it taking more than a few decades before the next European ship came to the Americas. Magellan was only 30 years later and his crew sailed around the world. You can't have steel that fast, which means no useful guns. Gunpowder is not very useful without steel to contain it. The next few ships would have brought the diseases, so I suspect this scenario just delays the conquest of the Americas by a few decades.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Not much
Let's assume the best case for the Aztecs-they kill all of Columbus' crew, have all the hardware available for inspection, and contract no European diseases. Technology comes as a whole interrelated package. People say the Aztecs could have understood the ship technology. They probably could understand the construction, but not why the ships were designed as they were. As others have said, you can't understand how to make steel just by looking at it, so you can't steal the ship designs in the places steel was used to hold the ship together. They might realize gunpowder was what made the muskets work, but figuring out how to make gunpowder seems difficult. It might have made them use wheels for real work instead of just children's toys. There would clearly be an explosion in technology, but Europe was progressing as well.
I can't imagine it taking more than a few decades before the next European ship came to the Americas. Magellan was only 30 years later and his crew sailed around the world. You can't have steel that fast, which means no useful guns. Gunpowder is not very useful without steel to contain it. The next few ships would have brought the diseases, so I suspect this scenario just delays the conquest of the Americas by a few decades.
Not much
Let's assume the best case for the Aztecs-they kill all of Columbus' crew, have all the hardware available for inspection, and contract no European diseases. Technology comes as a whole interrelated package. People say the Aztecs could have understood the ship technology. They probably could understand the construction, but not why the ships were designed as they were. As others have said, you can't understand how to make steel just by looking at it, so you can't steal the ship designs in the places steel was used to hold the ship together. They might realize gunpowder was what made the muskets work, but figuring out how to make gunpowder seems difficult. It might have made them use wheels for real work instead of just children's toys. There would clearly be an explosion in technology, but Europe was progressing as well.
I can't imagine it taking more than a few decades before the next European ship came to the Americas. Magellan was only 30 years later and his crew sailed around the world. You can't have steel that fast, which means no useful guns. Gunpowder is not very useful without steel to contain it. The next few ships would have brought the diseases, so I suspect this scenario just delays the conquest of the Americas by a few decades.
answered 2 hours ago
Ross Millikan
28527
28527
add a comment |
add a comment |
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– L.Dutch♦
15 hours ago
"becoming the major power of the Americas and ending up sending their own expedition back to Spain?" So, that's two very different questions, there. It's one thing to build 3 ships capable of a trans-Atlantic voyage, it's quite another to become the dominant power in a continent or region. ... and for what it's worth, Spain in 1492 was not the dominant power in Europe, so why do the Aztecs need to become the dominant power in Mesoamerica with this captured technology?
– HopelessN00b
12 hours ago
IIRC, a basic problem is that the ship would have landed in the territory of one of the Aztec's subject peoples. They were not really fond of Aztec rule (human sacrifice tends to do that), which was a major factor in Cortez' later success. So it seems more likely that the technology, if it could be adopted successfully, would be used to overthrow the Aztecs.
– jamesqf
12 hours ago