Is the demon summoned by the Summon Greater Demon spell hostile to you?
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Assuming that you use summon greater demon (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, p. 166), and on your next turn, you still have the "control" over him granted by summon greater demon.
Now I want to use charm monster (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, p. 151) on the demon, so that (assuming I succeed) if I lose my concentration on the summon greater demon spell, I still have a demon by my side for 1d6 rounds.
Does the demon have advantage on the saving throw against charm monster due to the fact that it's hostile to me?
dnd-5e spells monsters summoning
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V2Blast
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F.Capoccia
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up vote
8
down vote
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Assuming that you use summon greater demon (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, p. 166), and on your next turn, you still have the "control" over him granted by summon greater demon.
Now I want to use charm monster (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, p. 151) on the demon, so that (assuming I succeed) if I lose my concentration on the summon greater demon spell, I still have a demon by my side for 1d6 rounds.
Does the demon have advantage on the saving throw against charm monster due to the fact that it's hostile to me?
dnd-5e spells monsters summoning
edited yesterday
V2Blast
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asked yesterday
F.Capoccia
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F.Capoccia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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I'm voting to close it as too broad - we have a One question = One question policy, and while your questions are related, they are still different questions.
– HellSaint
yesterday
The behavior is clearly explained in the spell's description. What part of that is confusing?
– Davo
yesterday
It is still two questions - one asks whether the demon is hostile or not. The other asks about Charm Monster, which again might be related (since if the demon is friendly you don't even need to cast Charm Monster), but a different question altogether. Also, as Davo mentioned, please clarify your question and your confusion, otherwise we would be just reading the spell for you.
– HellSaint
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
favorite
up vote
8
down vote
favorite
Assuming that you use summon greater demon (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, p. 166), and on your next turn, you still have the "control" over him granted by summon greater demon.
Now I want to use charm monster (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, p. 151) on the demon, so that (assuming I succeed) if I lose my concentration on the summon greater demon spell, I still have a demon by my side for 1d6 rounds.
Does the demon have advantage on the saving throw against charm monster due to the fact that it's hostile to me?
dnd-5e spells monsters summoning
edited yesterday
V2Blast
18.1k248114
asked yesterday
F.Capoccia
1035
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F.Capoccia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Assuming that you use summon greater demon (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, p. 166), and on your next turn, you still have the "control" over him granted by summon greater demon.
Now I want to use charm monster (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, p. 151) on the demon, so that (assuming I succeed) if I lose my concentration on the summon greater demon spell, I still have a demon by my side for 1d6 rounds.
Does the demon have advantage on the saving throw against charm monster due to the fact that it's hostile to me?
dnd-5e spells monsters summoning
dnd-5e spells monsters summoning
edited yesterday
V2Blast
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asked yesterday
F.Capoccia
1035
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edited yesterday
V2Blast
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asked yesterday
F.Capoccia
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edited yesterday
V2Blast
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edited yesterday
V2Blast
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edited yesterday
V2Blast
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18.1k248114
asked yesterday
F.Capoccia
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F.Capoccia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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asked yesterday
F.Capoccia
1035
asked yesterday
F.Capoccia
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F.Capoccia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor
F.Capoccia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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Check out our Code of Conduct.
I'm voting to close it as too broad - we have a One question = One question policy, and while your questions are related, they are still different questions.
– HellSaint
yesterday
The behavior is clearly explained in the spell's description. What part of that is confusing?
– Davo
yesterday
It is still two questions - one asks whether the demon is hostile or not. The other asks about Charm Monster, which again might be related (since if the demon is friendly you don't even need to cast Charm Monster), but a different question altogether. Also, as Davo mentioned, please clarify your question and your confusion, otherwise we would be just reading the spell for you.
– HellSaint
yesterday
add a comment |
I'm voting to close it as too broad - we have a One question = One question policy, and while your questions are related, they are still different questions.
– HellSaint
yesterday
The behavior is clearly explained in the spell's description. What part of that is confusing?
– Davo
yesterday
It is still two questions - one asks whether the demon is hostile or not. The other asks about Charm Monster, which again might be related (since if the demon is friendly you don't even need to cast Charm Monster), but a different question altogether. Also, as Davo mentioned, please clarify your question and your confusion, otherwise we would be just reading the spell for you.
– HellSaint
yesterday
I'm voting to close it as too broad - we have a One question = One question policy, and while your questions are related, they are still different questions.
– HellSaint
yesterday
I'm voting to close it as too broad - we have a One question = One question policy, and while your questions are related, they are still different questions.
– HellSaint
yesterday
The behavior is clearly explained in the spell's description. What part of that is confusing?
– Davo
yesterday
The behavior is clearly explained in the spell's description. What part of that is confusing?
– Davo
yesterday
It is still two questions - one asks whether the demon is hostile or not. The other asks about Charm Monster, which again might be related (since if the demon is friendly you don't even need to cast Charm Monster), but a different question altogether. Also, as Davo mentioned, please clarify your question and your confusion, otherwise we would be just reading the spell for you.
– HellSaint
yesterday
It is still two questions - one asks whether the demon is hostile or not. The other asks about Charm Monster, which again might be related (since if the demon is friendly you don't even need to cast Charm Monster), but a different question altogether. Also, as Davo mentioned, please clarify your question and your confusion, otherwise we would be just reading the spell for you.
– HellSaint
yesterday
add a comment |
3 Answers
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up vote
11
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accepted
The demon is hostile to you. It is hostile to other demons. It is hostile to all gods. It is hostile to reality itself. Demons are an extension of the abyss, which itself is a living tear in the multiverse that seeks its ultimate undoing as an expression of endless chaos.
So yeah, the demon is hostile to you, and it has advantage against your charm spells. Don't summon demons, unless you want to die fighting them.
Mechanically: Most Demons have magical resistance, and nearly all of the Greater Demons have it. So to some degree, its hostility is a moot point.
"Magic Resistance: The creature has advantage on Saving Throws against
Spells and other magical effects."
In the case of the summoning spell, you can impose disadvantage on the demon's saves if you happen to have acquired its true name.
answered yesterday
AshRandom
2,28111138
1
I get your point, anyway I'm interested in the more mechanical aspect of the scenario. For example I'm pretty sure that a charmed demon isn't hostile to you.
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
1
"It is hostile to other demons"; no it isn't, the spell description specifically says it isn't.
– NathanS
yesterday
2
@NathanS Actually it merely specifies that the summoned demon will begin by attacking all the non-demons, at which point the session would be over for the adventurers assuming it ran out of mortal targets. But either way, demons are constantly attacking each other, that's fundamental D&D lore. It's only when they're grossly outclassed by a larger demon that they wouldn't try to murder it.
– AshRandom
yesterday
Would you mind if I summoned a demon for the sole purpose of destroying it for XP?
– Joshua
yesterday
1
In a lore sense, I agree with you, but not in a mechanics sense (i.e. for the purposes of charm monster).
– NathanS
21 hours ago
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No, the demon would not make the saving throw with advantage*
* At least, not due to charm monster; see this question about the demon's magical resistances. This answer is ignoring that for the purposes of keeping the focus on the circumstances of advantage granted by charm monster.
The demon is not initially hostile to you, since it is under your command. Narratively, it hates you, but mechanically, it is not able to attack you unless you attack it first (or until it breaks free of your control).
Summon greater demon (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pg. 166-167) says:
When you summon it and on each of your turns, you can issue a verbal command for its next turn without using any action. If you issue no command, it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.
At the end of the demon's turns, it makes a Charisma save. It has disadvantage if you say its true name. On a success, your control of the demon ends and it spends its turns attacking the nearest non-demon.
After it breaks free of your control, it can target you as a valid "non-demon" target, so it is hostile at that point, and would therefore have advantage on the saving throw for charm monster. Before then, however, it would not because it is not fighting against you at that point.
Charm monster (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pg. 151) says:
A creature you can see must make a Wisdom save, and has advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails, it's charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions harm it. The charmed creature is friendly to you. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you.
So if you plan to use charm monster as a failsafe against it attacking you for the next minute, then it seems like a sound plan to me. Bear in mind that the Charmed condition only means it won't attack you, so you still don't strictly have it "by your side" if it breaks free of your control; even while charmed, it'll still do what it wants so long as that doesn't involve directly attacking you.
answered 21 hours ago
NathanS
19.4k685207
I do agree with the point that, if you are not actively fighting the demon, then it doesn't have advantage. But don't really get your initial point that just because it can't attack unless you issue no command then it isn't implicitly hostile (not that the spell says it IS, but just don't think this can be implied from the 'no attack until you issue no command' statement).
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ Perhaps I'm not adding the emphasis correctly. Where I embolden "it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.", what I'm really trying to stress is that it only attacks creatures that attacked it, so unless you smack your own demon (all whilst you still have control over it), then there's no way it can be considered hostile to you at that point; it only attacks those who attack it (i.e. it's only hostile to those who attack it or those you tell it to attack). Does that clear anything up (and is there anything I need to adjust in my answer to make that clearer)?
– NathanS
13 hours ago
I see what you mean now. Though I think that statement about attacking is just intended to just be a default action in lieu of you not directly commanding otherwise (because the summoning spell is still forcing its behaviour until it makes the Charisma save) and doesn't outright say anything about its hostility towards the caster.
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ I know it doesn't explicitly say "the demon is not hostile", but it can still be inferred that the demon cannot be hostile to the caster if it only attacks those it is told to attack by the caster or those who have attacked it; so long as the caster doesn't attack it, then the demon is not hostile to the caster.
– NathanS
13 hours ago
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Yes and no .. the demon is hostile in the manner of characteristics of being a demon, but as far as the spell text is as follow:
On a successful save, your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration, and the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability.
As per spell text, if the demon fails the save it will attack non-demons.
While the spell lasts, the summoned demon can't cross the circle or harm it, and it can't target anyone within it.
This prevents the demon from actively targeting you.
Doesn’t mean they can’t be verbally hostile towards you.
Specific > General
answered yesterday
XAQT78
562111
1
Note that the circle is optional.
– HellSaint
yesterday
Still relevant, can’t imagine not doing the circle :/ considering without the circle you become viable target ergo hostile (combat) towards you?
– XAQT78
yesterday
I think you flipped it: if the demon fails the save it will follow your command or "attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it" if there is no command. Anyway, what prevent me from commanding him to intentionally fail saving throws against my spells ?
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
3
@F.Capoccia: See this question: Can you choose to fail a saving throw? (Also, in-universe, creatures have no concept of what a "saving throw" is or what it means to fail one.)
– V2Blast
yesterday
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
11
down vote
accepted
The demon is hostile to you. It is hostile to other demons. It is hostile to all gods. It is hostile to reality itself. Demons are an extension of the abyss, which itself is a living tear in the multiverse that seeks its ultimate undoing as an expression of endless chaos.
So yeah, the demon is hostile to you, and it has advantage against your charm spells. Don't summon demons, unless you want to die fighting them.
Mechanically: Most Demons have magical resistance, and nearly all of the Greater Demons have it. So to some degree, its hostility is a moot point.
"Magic Resistance: The creature has advantage on Saving Throws against
Spells and other magical effects."
In the case of the summoning spell, you can impose disadvantage on the demon's saves if you happen to have acquired its true name.
answered yesterday
AshRandom
2,28111138
1
I get your point, anyway I'm interested in the more mechanical aspect of the scenario. For example I'm pretty sure that a charmed demon isn't hostile to you.
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
1
"It is hostile to other demons"; no it isn't, the spell description specifically says it isn't.
– NathanS
yesterday
2
@NathanS Actually it merely specifies that the summoned demon will begin by attacking all the non-demons, at which point the session would be over for the adventurers assuming it ran out of mortal targets. But either way, demons are constantly attacking each other, that's fundamental D&D lore. It's only when they're grossly outclassed by a larger demon that they wouldn't try to murder it.
– AshRandom
yesterday
Would you mind if I summoned a demon for the sole purpose of destroying it for XP?
– Joshua
yesterday
1
In a lore sense, I agree with you, but not in a mechanics sense (i.e. for the purposes of charm monster).
– NathanS
21 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
accepted
The demon is hostile to you. It is hostile to other demons. It is hostile to all gods. It is hostile to reality itself. Demons are an extension of the abyss, which itself is a living tear in the multiverse that seeks its ultimate undoing as an expression of endless chaos.
So yeah, the demon is hostile to you, and it has advantage against your charm spells. Don't summon demons, unless you want to die fighting them.
Mechanically: Most Demons have magical resistance, and nearly all of the Greater Demons have it. So to some degree, its hostility is a moot point.
"Magic Resistance: The creature has advantage on Saving Throws against
Spells and other magical effects."
In the case of the summoning spell, you can impose disadvantage on the demon's saves if you happen to have acquired its true name.
answered yesterday
AshRandom
2,28111138
1
I get your point, anyway I'm interested in the more mechanical aspect of the scenario. For example I'm pretty sure that a charmed demon isn't hostile to you.
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
1
"It is hostile to other demons"; no it isn't, the spell description specifically says it isn't.
– NathanS
yesterday
2
@NathanS Actually it merely specifies that the summoned demon will begin by attacking all the non-demons, at which point the session would be over for the adventurers assuming it ran out of mortal targets. But either way, demons are constantly attacking each other, that's fundamental D&D lore. It's only when they're grossly outclassed by a larger demon that they wouldn't try to murder it.
– AshRandom
yesterday
Would you mind if I summoned a demon for the sole purpose of destroying it for XP?
– Joshua
yesterday
1
In a lore sense, I agree with you, but not in a mechanics sense (i.e. for the purposes of charm monster).
– NathanS
21 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
accepted
up vote
11
down vote
accepted
The demon is hostile to you. It is hostile to other demons. It is hostile to all gods. It is hostile to reality itself. Demons are an extension of the abyss, which itself is a living tear in the multiverse that seeks its ultimate undoing as an expression of endless chaos.
So yeah, the demon is hostile to you, and it has advantage against your charm spells. Don't summon demons, unless you want to die fighting them.
Mechanically: Most Demons have magical resistance, and nearly all of the Greater Demons have it. So to some degree, its hostility is a moot point.
"Magic Resistance: The creature has advantage on Saving Throws against
Spells and other magical effects."
In the case of the summoning spell, you can impose disadvantage on the demon's saves if you happen to have acquired its true name.
answered yesterday
AshRandom
2,28111138
The demon is hostile to you. It is hostile to other demons. It is hostile to all gods. It is hostile to reality itself. Demons are an extension of the abyss, which itself is a living tear in the multiverse that seeks its ultimate undoing as an expression of endless chaos.
So yeah, the demon is hostile to you, and it has advantage against your charm spells. Don't summon demons, unless you want to die fighting them.
Mechanically: Most Demons have magical resistance, and nearly all of the Greater Demons have it. So to some degree, its hostility is a moot point.
"Magic Resistance: The creature has advantage on Saving Throws against
Spells and other magical effects."
In the case of the summoning spell, you can impose disadvantage on the demon's saves if you happen to have acquired its true name.
answered yesterday
AshRandom
2,28111138
edited 9 hours ago
answered yesterday
AshRandom
2,28111138
answered yesterday
AshRandom
2,28111138
answered yesterday
AshRandom
2,28111138
2,28111138
1
I get your point, anyway I'm interested in the more mechanical aspect of the scenario. For example I'm pretty sure that a charmed demon isn't hostile to you.
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
1
"It is hostile to other demons"; no it isn't, the spell description specifically says it isn't.
– NathanS
yesterday
2
@NathanS Actually it merely specifies that the summoned demon will begin by attacking all the non-demons, at which point the session would be over for the adventurers assuming it ran out of mortal targets. But either way, demons are constantly attacking each other, that's fundamental D&D lore. It's only when they're grossly outclassed by a larger demon that they wouldn't try to murder it.
– AshRandom
yesterday
Would you mind if I summoned a demon for the sole purpose of destroying it for XP?
– Joshua
yesterday
1
In a lore sense, I agree with you, but not in a mechanics sense (i.e. for the purposes of charm monster).
– NathanS
21 hours ago
add a comment |
1
I get your point, anyway I'm interested in the more mechanical aspect of the scenario. For example I'm pretty sure that a charmed demon isn't hostile to you.
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
1
"It is hostile to other demons"; no it isn't, the spell description specifically says it isn't.
– NathanS
yesterday
2
@NathanS Actually it merely specifies that the summoned demon will begin by attacking all the non-demons, at which point the session would be over for the adventurers assuming it ran out of mortal targets. But either way, demons are constantly attacking each other, that's fundamental D&D lore. It's only when they're grossly outclassed by a larger demon that they wouldn't try to murder it.
– AshRandom
yesterday
Would you mind if I summoned a demon for the sole purpose of destroying it for XP?
– Joshua
yesterday
1
In a lore sense, I agree with you, but not in a mechanics sense (i.e. for the purposes of charm monster).
– NathanS
21 hours ago
1
1
I get your point, anyway I'm interested in the more mechanical aspect of the scenario. For example I'm pretty sure that a charmed demon isn't hostile to you.
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
I get your point, anyway I'm interested in the more mechanical aspect of the scenario. For example I'm pretty sure that a charmed demon isn't hostile to you.
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
1
1
"It is hostile to other demons"; no it isn't, the spell description specifically says it isn't.
– NathanS
yesterday
"It is hostile to other demons"; no it isn't, the spell description specifically says it isn't.
– NathanS
yesterday
2
2
@NathanS Actually it merely specifies that the summoned demon will begin by attacking all the non-demons, at which point the session would be over for the adventurers assuming it ran out of mortal targets. But either way, demons are constantly attacking each other, that's fundamental D&D lore. It's only when they're grossly outclassed by a larger demon that they wouldn't try to murder it.
– AshRandom
yesterday
@NathanS Actually it merely specifies that the summoned demon will begin by attacking all the non-demons, at which point the session would be over for the adventurers assuming it ran out of mortal targets. But either way, demons are constantly attacking each other, that's fundamental D&D lore. It's only when they're grossly outclassed by a larger demon that they wouldn't try to murder it.
– AshRandom
yesterday
Would you mind if I summoned a demon for the sole purpose of destroying it for XP?
– Joshua
yesterday
Would you mind if I summoned a demon for the sole purpose of destroying it for XP?
– Joshua
yesterday
1
1
In a lore sense, I agree with you, but not in a mechanics sense (i.e. for the purposes of charm monster).
– NathanS
21 hours ago
In a lore sense, I agree with you, but not in a mechanics sense (i.e. for the purposes of charm monster).
– NathanS
21 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
No, the demon would not make the saving throw with advantage*
* At least, not due to charm monster; see this question about the demon's magical resistances. This answer is ignoring that for the purposes of keeping the focus on the circumstances of advantage granted by charm monster.
The demon is not initially hostile to you, since it is under your command. Narratively, it hates you, but mechanically, it is not able to attack you unless you attack it first (or until it breaks free of your control).
Summon greater demon (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pg. 166-167) says:
When you summon it and on each of your turns, you can issue a verbal command for its next turn without using any action. If you issue no command, it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.
At the end of the demon's turns, it makes a Charisma save. It has disadvantage if you say its true name. On a success, your control of the demon ends and it spends its turns attacking the nearest non-demon.
After it breaks free of your control, it can target you as a valid "non-demon" target, so it is hostile at that point, and would therefore have advantage on the saving throw for charm monster. Before then, however, it would not because it is not fighting against you at that point.
Charm monster (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pg. 151) says:
A creature you can see must make a Wisdom save, and has advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails, it's charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions harm it. The charmed creature is friendly to you. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you.
So if you plan to use charm monster as a failsafe against it attacking you for the next minute, then it seems like a sound plan to me. Bear in mind that the Charmed condition only means it won't attack you, so you still don't strictly have it "by your side" if it breaks free of your control; even while charmed, it'll still do what it wants so long as that doesn't involve directly attacking you.
answered 21 hours ago
NathanS
19.4k685207
I do agree with the point that, if you are not actively fighting the demon, then it doesn't have advantage. But don't really get your initial point that just because it can't attack unless you issue no command then it isn't implicitly hostile (not that the spell says it IS, but just don't think this can be implied from the 'no attack until you issue no command' statement).
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ Perhaps I'm not adding the emphasis correctly. Where I embolden "it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.", what I'm really trying to stress is that it only attacks creatures that attacked it, so unless you smack your own demon (all whilst you still have control over it), then there's no way it can be considered hostile to you at that point; it only attacks those who attack it (i.e. it's only hostile to those who attack it or those you tell it to attack). Does that clear anything up (and is there anything I need to adjust in my answer to make that clearer)?
– NathanS
13 hours ago
I see what you mean now. Though I think that statement about attacking is just intended to just be a default action in lieu of you not directly commanding otherwise (because the summoning spell is still forcing its behaviour until it makes the Charisma save) and doesn't outright say anything about its hostility towards the caster.
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ I know it doesn't explicitly say "the demon is not hostile", but it can still be inferred that the demon cannot be hostile to the caster if it only attacks those it is told to attack by the caster or those who have attacked it; so long as the caster doesn't attack it, then the demon is not hostile to the caster.
– NathanS
13 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
No, the demon would not make the saving throw with advantage*
* At least, not due to charm monster; see this question about the demon's magical resistances. This answer is ignoring that for the purposes of keeping the focus on the circumstances of advantage granted by charm monster.
The demon is not initially hostile to you, since it is under your command. Narratively, it hates you, but mechanically, it is not able to attack you unless you attack it first (or until it breaks free of your control).
Summon greater demon (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pg. 166-167) says:
When you summon it and on each of your turns, you can issue a verbal command for its next turn without using any action. If you issue no command, it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.
At the end of the demon's turns, it makes a Charisma save. It has disadvantage if you say its true name. On a success, your control of the demon ends and it spends its turns attacking the nearest non-demon.
After it breaks free of your control, it can target you as a valid "non-demon" target, so it is hostile at that point, and would therefore have advantage on the saving throw for charm monster. Before then, however, it would not because it is not fighting against you at that point.
Charm monster (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pg. 151) says:
A creature you can see must make a Wisdom save, and has advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails, it's charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions harm it. The charmed creature is friendly to you. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you.
So if you plan to use charm monster as a failsafe against it attacking you for the next minute, then it seems like a sound plan to me. Bear in mind that the Charmed condition only means it won't attack you, so you still don't strictly have it "by your side" if it breaks free of your control; even while charmed, it'll still do what it wants so long as that doesn't involve directly attacking you.
answered 21 hours ago
NathanS
19.4k685207
I do agree with the point that, if you are not actively fighting the demon, then it doesn't have advantage. But don't really get your initial point that just because it can't attack unless you issue no command then it isn't implicitly hostile (not that the spell says it IS, but just don't think this can be implied from the 'no attack until you issue no command' statement).
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ Perhaps I'm not adding the emphasis correctly. Where I embolden "it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.", what I'm really trying to stress is that it only attacks creatures that attacked it, so unless you smack your own demon (all whilst you still have control over it), then there's no way it can be considered hostile to you at that point; it only attacks those who attack it (i.e. it's only hostile to those who attack it or those you tell it to attack). Does that clear anything up (and is there anything I need to adjust in my answer to make that clearer)?
– NathanS
13 hours ago
I see what you mean now. Though I think that statement about attacking is just intended to just be a default action in lieu of you not directly commanding otherwise (because the summoning spell is still forcing its behaviour until it makes the Charisma save) and doesn't outright say anything about its hostility towards the caster.
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ I know it doesn't explicitly say "the demon is not hostile", but it can still be inferred that the demon cannot be hostile to the caster if it only attacks those it is told to attack by the caster or those who have attacked it; so long as the caster doesn't attack it, then the demon is not hostile to the caster.
– NathanS
13 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
No, the demon would not make the saving throw with advantage*
* At least, not due to charm monster; see this question about the demon's magical resistances. This answer is ignoring that for the purposes of keeping the focus on the circumstances of advantage granted by charm monster.
The demon is not initially hostile to you, since it is under your command. Narratively, it hates you, but mechanically, it is not able to attack you unless you attack it first (or until it breaks free of your control).
Summon greater demon (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pg. 166-167) says:
When you summon it and on each of your turns, you can issue a verbal command for its next turn without using any action. If you issue no command, it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.
At the end of the demon's turns, it makes a Charisma save. It has disadvantage if you say its true name. On a success, your control of the demon ends and it spends its turns attacking the nearest non-demon.
After it breaks free of your control, it can target you as a valid "non-demon" target, so it is hostile at that point, and would therefore have advantage on the saving throw for charm monster. Before then, however, it would not because it is not fighting against you at that point.
Charm monster (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pg. 151) says:
A creature you can see must make a Wisdom save, and has advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails, it's charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions harm it. The charmed creature is friendly to you. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you.
So if you plan to use charm monster as a failsafe against it attacking you for the next minute, then it seems like a sound plan to me. Bear in mind that the Charmed condition only means it won't attack you, so you still don't strictly have it "by your side" if it breaks free of your control; even while charmed, it'll still do what it wants so long as that doesn't involve directly attacking you.
answered 21 hours ago
NathanS
19.4k685207
No, the demon would not make the saving throw with advantage*
* At least, not due to charm monster; see this question about the demon's magical resistances. This answer is ignoring that for the purposes of keeping the focus on the circumstances of advantage granted by charm monster.
The demon is not initially hostile to you, since it is under your command. Narratively, it hates you, but mechanically, it is not able to attack you unless you attack it first (or until it breaks free of your control).
Summon greater demon (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pg. 166-167) says:
When you summon it and on each of your turns, you can issue a verbal command for its next turn without using any action. If you issue no command, it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.
At the end of the demon's turns, it makes a Charisma save. It has disadvantage if you say its true name. On a success, your control of the demon ends and it spends its turns attacking the nearest non-demon.
After it breaks free of your control, it can target you as a valid "non-demon" target, so it is hostile at that point, and would therefore have advantage on the saving throw for charm monster. Before then, however, it would not because it is not fighting against you at that point.
Charm monster (Xanathar's Guide to Everything, pg. 151) says:
A creature you can see must make a Wisdom save, and has advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails, it's charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions harm it. The charmed creature is friendly to you. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was charmed by you.
So if you plan to use charm monster as a failsafe against it attacking you for the next minute, then it seems like a sound plan to me. Bear in mind that the Charmed condition only means it won't attack you, so you still don't strictly have it "by your side" if it breaks free of your control; even while charmed, it'll still do what it wants so long as that doesn't involve directly attacking you.
answered 21 hours ago
NathanS
19.4k685207
edited 13 hours ago
answered 21 hours ago
NathanS
19.4k685207
answered 21 hours ago
NathanS
19.4k685207
answered 21 hours ago
NathanS
19.4k685207
19.4k685207
I do agree with the point that, if you are not actively fighting the demon, then it doesn't have advantage. But don't really get your initial point that just because it can't attack unless you issue no command then it isn't implicitly hostile (not that the spell says it IS, but just don't think this can be implied from the 'no attack until you issue no command' statement).
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ Perhaps I'm not adding the emphasis correctly. Where I embolden "it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.", what I'm really trying to stress is that it only attacks creatures that attacked it, so unless you smack your own demon (all whilst you still have control over it), then there's no way it can be considered hostile to you at that point; it only attacks those who attack it (i.e. it's only hostile to those who attack it or those you tell it to attack). Does that clear anything up (and is there anything I need to adjust in my answer to make that clearer)?
– NathanS
13 hours ago
I see what you mean now. Though I think that statement about attacking is just intended to just be a default action in lieu of you not directly commanding otherwise (because the summoning spell is still forcing its behaviour until it makes the Charisma save) and doesn't outright say anything about its hostility towards the caster.
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ I know it doesn't explicitly say "the demon is not hostile", but it can still be inferred that the demon cannot be hostile to the caster if it only attacks those it is told to attack by the caster or those who have attacked it; so long as the caster doesn't attack it, then the demon is not hostile to the caster.
– NathanS
13 hours ago
add a comment |
I do agree with the point that, if you are not actively fighting the demon, then it doesn't have advantage. But don't really get your initial point that just because it can't attack unless you issue no command then it isn't implicitly hostile (not that the spell says it IS, but just don't think this can be implied from the 'no attack until you issue no command' statement).
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ Perhaps I'm not adding the emphasis correctly. Where I embolden "it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.", what I'm really trying to stress is that it only attacks creatures that attacked it, so unless you smack your own demon (all whilst you still have control over it), then there's no way it can be considered hostile to you at that point; it only attacks those who attack it (i.e. it's only hostile to those who attack it or those you tell it to attack). Does that clear anything up (and is there anything I need to adjust in my answer to make that clearer)?
– NathanS
13 hours ago
I see what you mean now. Though I think that statement about attacking is just intended to just be a default action in lieu of you not directly commanding otherwise (because the summoning spell is still forcing its behaviour until it makes the Charisma save) and doesn't outright say anything about its hostility towards the caster.
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ I know it doesn't explicitly say "the demon is not hostile", but it can still be inferred that the demon cannot be hostile to the caster if it only attacks those it is told to attack by the caster or those who have attacked it; so long as the caster doesn't attack it, then the demon is not hostile to the caster.
– NathanS
13 hours ago
I do agree with the point that, if you are not actively fighting the demon, then it doesn't have advantage. But don't really get your initial point that just because it can't attack unless you issue no command then it isn't implicitly hostile (not that the spell says it IS, but just don't think this can be implied from the 'no attack until you issue no command' statement).
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
I do agree with the point that, if you are not actively fighting the demon, then it doesn't have advantage. But don't really get your initial point that just because it can't attack unless you issue no command then it isn't implicitly hostile (not that the spell says it IS, but just don't think this can be implied from the 'no attack until you issue no command' statement).
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ Perhaps I'm not adding the emphasis correctly. Where I embolden "it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.", what I'm really trying to stress is that it only attacks creatures that attacked it, so unless you smack your own demon (all whilst you still have control over it), then there's no way it can be considered hostile to you at that point; it only attacks those who attack it (i.e. it's only hostile to those who attack it or those you tell it to attack). Does that clear anything up (and is there anything I need to adjust in my answer to make that clearer)?
– NathanS
13 hours ago
@PJRZ Perhaps I'm not adding the emphasis correctly. Where I embolden "it attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it.", what I'm really trying to stress is that it only attacks creatures that attacked it, so unless you smack your own demon (all whilst you still have control over it), then there's no way it can be considered hostile to you at that point; it only attacks those who attack it (i.e. it's only hostile to those who attack it or those you tell it to attack). Does that clear anything up (and is there anything I need to adjust in my answer to make that clearer)?
– NathanS
13 hours ago
I see what you mean now. Though I think that statement about attacking is just intended to just be a default action in lieu of you not directly commanding otherwise (because the summoning spell is still forcing its behaviour until it makes the Charisma save) and doesn't outright say anything about its hostility towards the caster.
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
I see what you mean now. Though I think that statement about attacking is just intended to just be a default action in lieu of you not directly commanding otherwise (because the summoning spell is still forcing its behaviour until it makes the Charisma save) and doesn't outright say anything about its hostility towards the caster.
– PJRZ
13 hours ago
@PJRZ I know it doesn't explicitly say "the demon is not hostile", but it can still be inferred that the demon cannot be hostile to the caster if it only attacks those it is told to attack by the caster or those who have attacked it; so long as the caster doesn't attack it, then the demon is not hostile to the caster.
– NathanS
13 hours ago
@PJRZ I know it doesn't explicitly say "the demon is not hostile", but it can still be inferred that the demon cannot be hostile to the caster if it only attacks those it is told to attack by the caster or those who have attacked it; so long as the caster doesn't attack it, then the demon is not hostile to the caster.
– NathanS
13 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
-3
down vote
Yes and no .. the demon is hostile in the manner of characteristics of being a demon, but as far as the spell text is as follow:
On a successful save, your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration, and the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability.
As per spell text, if the demon fails the save it will attack non-demons.
While the spell lasts, the summoned demon can't cross the circle or harm it, and it can't target anyone within it.
This prevents the demon from actively targeting you.
Doesn’t mean they can’t be verbally hostile towards you.
Specific > General
answered yesterday
XAQT78
562111
1
Note that the circle is optional.
– HellSaint
yesterday
Still relevant, can’t imagine not doing the circle :/ considering without the circle you become viable target ergo hostile (combat) towards you?
– XAQT78
yesterday
I think you flipped it: if the demon fails the save it will follow your command or "attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it" if there is no command. Anyway, what prevent me from commanding him to intentionally fail saving throws against my spells ?
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
3
@F.Capoccia: See this question: Can you choose to fail a saving throw? (Also, in-universe, creatures have no concept of what a "saving throw" is or what it means to fail one.)
– V2Blast
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
-3
down vote
Yes and no .. the demon is hostile in the manner of characteristics of being a demon, but as far as the spell text is as follow:
On a successful save, your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration, and the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability.
As per spell text, if the demon fails the save it will attack non-demons.
While the spell lasts, the summoned demon can't cross the circle or harm it, and it can't target anyone within it.
This prevents the demon from actively targeting you.
Doesn’t mean they can’t be verbally hostile towards you.
Specific > General
answered yesterday
XAQT78
562111
1
Note that the circle is optional.
– HellSaint
yesterday
Still relevant, can’t imagine not doing the circle :/ considering without the circle you become viable target ergo hostile (combat) towards you?
– XAQT78
yesterday
I think you flipped it: if the demon fails the save it will follow your command or "attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it" if there is no command. Anyway, what prevent me from commanding him to intentionally fail saving throws against my spells ?
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
3
@F.Capoccia: See this question: Can you choose to fail a saving throw? (Also, in-universe, creatures have no concept of what a "saving throw" is or what it means to fail one.)
– V2Blast
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
-3
down vote
up vote
-3
down vote
Yes and no .. the demon is hostile in the manner of characteristics of being a demon, but as far as the spell text is as follow:
On a successful save, your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration, and the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability.
As per spell text, if the demon fails the save it will attack non-demons.
While the spell lasts, the summoned demon can't cross the circle or harm it, and it can't target anyone within it.
This prevents the demon from actively targeting you.
Doesn’t mean they can’t be verbally hostile towards you.
Specific > General
answered yesterday
XAQT78
562111
Yes and no .. the demon is hostile in the manner of characteristics of being a demon, but as far as the spell text is as follow:
On a successful save, your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration, and the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability.
As per spell text, if the demon fails the save it will attack non-demons.
While the spell lasts, the summoned demon can't cross the circle or harm it, and it can't target anyone within it.
This prevents the demon from actively targeting you.
Doesn’t mean they can’t be verbally hostile towards you.
Specific > General
answered yesterday
XAQT78
562111
answered yesterday
XAQT78
562111
answered yesterday
XAQT78
562111
answered yesterday
XAQT78
562111
562111
1
Note that the circle is optional.
– HellSaint
yesterday
Still relevant, can’t imagine not doing the circle :/ considering without the circle you become viable target ergo hostile (combat) towards you?
– XAQT78
yesterday
I think you flipped it: if the demon fails the save it will follow your command or "attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it" if there is no command. Anyway, what prevent me from commanding him to intentionally fail saving throws against my spells ?
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
3
@F.Capoccia: See this question: Can you choose to fail a saving throw? (Also, in-universe, creatures have no concept of what a "saving throw" is or what it means to fail one.)
– V2Blast
yesterday
add a comment |
1
Note that the circle is optional.
– HellSaint
yesterday
Still relevant, can’t imagine not doing the circle :/ considering without the circle you become viable target ergo hostile (combat) towards you?
– XAQT78
yesterday
I think you flipped it: if the demon fails the save it will follow your command or "attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it" if there is no command. Anyway, what prevent me from commanding him to intentionally fail saving throws against my spells ?
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
3
@F.Capoccia: See this question: Can you choose to fail a saving throw? (Also, in-universe, creatures have no concept of what a "saving throw" is or what it means to fail one.)
– V2Blast
yesterday
1
1
Note that the circle is optional.
– HellSaint
yesterday
Note that the circle is optional.
– HellSaint
yesterday
Still relevant, can’t imagine not doing the circle :/ considering without the circle you become viable target ergo hostile (combat) towards you?
– XAQT78
yesterday
Still relevant, can’t imagine not doing the circle :/ considering without the circle you become viable target ergo hostile (combat) towards you?
– XAQT78
yesterday
I think you flipped it: if the demon fails the save it will follow your command or "attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it" if there is no command. Anyway, what prevent me from commanding him to intentionally fail saving throws against my spells ?
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
I think you flipped it: if the demon fails the save it will follow your command or "attacks any creature in reach that's attacked it" if there is no command. Anyway, what prevent me from commanding him to intentionally fail saving throws against my spells ?
– F.Capoccia
yesterday
3
3
@F.Capoccia: See this question: Can you choose to fail a saving throw? (Also, in-universe, creatures have no concept of what a "saving throw" is or what it means to fail one.)
– V2Blast
yesterday
@F.Capoccia: See this question: Can you choose to fail a saving throw? (Also, in-universe, creatures have no concept of what a "saving throw" is or what it means to fail one.)
– V2Blast
yesterday
add a comment |
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I'm voting to close it as too broad - we have a One question = One question policy, and while your questions are related, they are still different questions.
– HellSaint
yesterday
The behavior is clearly explained in the spell's description. What part of that is confusing?
– Davo
yesterday
It is still two questions - one asks whether the demon is hostile or not. The other asks about Charm Monster, which again might be related (since if the demon is friendly you don't even need to cast Charm Monster), but a different question altogether. Also, as Davo mentioned, please clarify your question and your confusion, otherwise we would be just reading the spell for you.
– HellSaint
yesterday