Can we determine an absolute frame of reference taking into account general relativity?











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Given that acceleration induces measurable physical effects, would it be correct to say that there should be an absolute inertial frame of reference? I know that one cannot distinguish a priori between acceleration and gravitational effects, but there should be a determined distribution of mass in the universe, and assuming it is known, its effects should be able to be subtracted to deduce 'absolute' acceleration. Is this incorrect?










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  • Very closely related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/442948
    – knzhou
    5 hours ago















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Given that acceleration induces measurable physical effects, would it be correct to say that there should be an absolute inertial frame of reference? I know that one cannot distinguish a priori between acceleration and gravitational effects, but there should be a determined distribution of mass in the universe, and assuming it is known, its effects should be able to be subtracted to deduce 'absolute' acceleration. Is this incorrect?










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  • Very closely related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/442948
    – knzhou
    5 hours ago













up vote
2
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favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











Given that acceleration induces measurable physical effects, would it be correct to say that there should be an absolute inertial frame of reference? I know that one cannot distinguish a priori between acceleration and gravitational effects, but there should be a determined distribution of mass in the universe, and assuming it is known, its effects should be able to be subtracted to deduce 'absolute' acceleration. Is this incorrect?










share|cite|improve this question















Given that acceleration induces measurable physical effects, would it be correct to say that there should be an absolute inertial frame of reference? I know that one cannot distinguish a priori between acceleration and gravitational effects, but there should be a determined distribution of mass in the universe, and assuming it is known, its effects should be able to be subtracted to deduce 'absolute' acceleration. Is this incorrect?







general-relativity gravity reference-frames acceleration machs-principle






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edited 3 mins ago









Ben Crowell

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  • Very closely related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/442948
    – knzhou
    5 hours ago


















  • Very closely related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/442948
    – knzhou
    5 hours ago
















Very closely related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/442948
– knzhou
5 hours ago




Very closely related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/442948
– knzhou
5 hours ago










2 Answers
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The problem is that to determine the distribution of mass in the universe you need to choose a coordinate system that you're going to be using for measuring the positions of all those masses. The trouble is that you are free to choose whatever coordinate system you want to make this measurement. There is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the mass distribution. Your choice of coordinate system will determine how much of any acceleration you measure is inertial and how much is gravitational.



The four-acceleration is given by:



$$ A^alpha = frac{mathrm d^2x^alpha}{mathrm dtau^2} + Gamma^alpha{}_{munu}U^mu U^nu $$



and speaking rather loosely the first term on the right is the inertial acceleration and the second term is the gravitational acceleration. The problem is that while the four-acceleration is a tensor the two terms on the right are not. It is always possible to choose a coordinate system that makes the inertial acceleration zero - in fact this is simply the rest frame of the accelerating object. Likewise it's always possible to choose coordinates that make the Christoffel symbols, $Gamma^alpha{}_{munu}$, equal to zero - these are the normal coordinates.



This is the equivalence principle in action. While the four-acceleration is a tensor, and therefore a coordinate independent object, the two terms on the right can be interchanged by a choice of coordinates making the acceleration look purely inertial, purely gravitational, or some combination of the two just by changing coordinates.



Since there is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the mass distribution there is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the inertial acceleration. The two types of acceleration are fundamentally indistinguishable.






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    up vote
    4
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    I like John Rennie's answer, but I'd like to add something. From the point of view of general relativity alone, and equations of motion, his answer is complete. From the point of view of large-scale cosmology, there is something to add. It turns out that the distribution of matter in the universe is rather simple on the largest scales, in that the evidence is that it is homogeneous and isotropic (as I say, on the largest scales). It follows that one can use this matter distribution to set up a most natural frame of reference or coordinate system. This is the reference frame in which nothing is moving on average at the largest scales. It is called comoving coordinates in cosmology. One can discover one's acceleration relative to this coordinate system.






    share|cite|improve this answer

















    • 2




      Yes, there is no such thing as a "preferred" coordinate system but the world is full of coordinate systems that people prefer. ;)
      – Display Name
      3 hours ago











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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
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    active

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    up vote
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    The problem is that to determine the distribution of mass in the universe you need to choose a coordinate system that you're going to be using for measuring the positions of all those masses. The trouble is that you are free to choose whatever coordinate system you want to make this measurement. There is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the mass distribution. Your choice of coordinate system will determine how much of any acceleration you measure is inertial and how much is gravitational.



    The four-acceleration is given by:



    $$ A^alpha = frac{mathrm d^2x^alpha}{mathrm dtau^2} + Gamma^alpha{}_{munu}U^mu U^nu $$



    and speaking rather loosely the first term on the right is the inertial acceleration and the second term is the gravitational acceleration. The problem is that while the four-acceleration is a tensor the two terms on the right are not. It is always possible to choose a coordinate system that makes the inertial acceleration zero - in fact this is simply the rest frame of the accelerating object. Likewise it's always possible to choose coordinates that make the Christoffel symbols, $Gamma^alpha{}_{munu}$, equal to zero - these are the normal coordinates.



    This is the equivalence principle in action. While the four-acceleration is a tensor, and therefore a coordinate independent object, the two terms on the right can be interchanged by a choice of coordinates making the acceleration look purely inertial, purely gravitational, or some combination of the two just by changing coordinates.



    Since there is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the mass distribution there is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the inertial acceleration. The two types of acceleration are fundamentally indistinguishable.






    share|cite|improve this answer

























      up vote
      6
      down vote













      The problem is that to determine the distribution of mass in the universe you need to choose a coordinate system that you're going to be using for measuring the positions of all those masses. The trouble is that you are free to choose whatever coordinate system you want to make this measurement. There is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the mass distribution. Your choice of coordinate system will determine how much of any acceleration you measure is inertial and how much is gravitational.



      The four-acceleration is given by:



      $$ A^alpha = frac{mathrm d^2x^alpha}{mathrm dtau^2} + Gamma^alpha{}_{munu}U^mu U^nu $$



      and speaking rather loosely the first term on the right is the inertial acceleration and the second term is the gravitational acceleration. The problem is that while the four-acceleration is a tensor the two terms on the right are not. It is always possible to choose a coordinate system that makes the inertial acceleration zero - in fact this is simply the rest frame of the accelerating object. Likewise it's always possible to choose coordinates that make the Christoffel symbols, $Gamma^alpha{}_{munu}$, equal to zero - these are the normal coordinates.



      This is the equivalence principle in action. While the four-acceleration is a tensor, and therefore a coordinate independent object, the two terms on the right can be interchanged by a choice of coordinates making the acceleration look purely inertial, purely gravitational, or some combination of the two just by changing coordinates.



      Since there is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the mass distribution there is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the inertial acceleration. The two types of acceleration are fundamentally indistinguishable.






      share|cite|improve this answer























        up vote
        6
        down vote










        up vote
        6
        down vote









        The problem is that to determine the distribution of mass in the universe you need to choose a coordinate system that you're going to be using for measuring the positions of all those masses. The trouble is that you are free to choose whatever coordinate system you want to make this measurement. There is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the mass distribution. Your choice of coordinate system will determine how much of any acceleration you measure is inertial and how much is gravitational.



        The four-acceleration is given by:



        $$ A^alpha = frac{mathrm d^2x^alpha}{mathrm dtau^2} + Gamma^alpha{}_{munu}U^mu U^nu $$



        and speaking rather loosely the first term on the right is the inertial acceleration and the second term is the gravitational acceleration. The problem is that while the four-acceleration is a tensor the two terms on the right are not. It is always possible to choose a coordinate system that makes the inertial acceleration zero - in fact this is simply the rest frame of the accelerating object. Likewise it's always possible to choose coordinates that make the Christoffel symbols, $Gamma^alpha{}_{munu}$, equal to zero - these are the normal coordinates.



        This is the equivalence principle in action. While the four-acceleration is a tensor, and therefore a coordinate independent object, the two terms on the right can be interchanged by a choice of coordinates making the acceleration look purely inertial, purely gravitational, or some combination of the two just by changing coordinates.



        Since there is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the mass distribution there is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the inertial acceleration. The two types of acceleration are fundamentally indistinguishable.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        The problem is that to determine the distribution of mass in the universe you need to choose a coordinate system that you're going to be using for measuring the positions of all those masses. The trouble is that you are free to choose whatever coordinate system you want to make this measurement. There is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the mass distribution. Your choice of coordinate system will determine how much of any acceleration you measure is inertial and how much is gravitational.



        The four-acceleration is given by:



        $$ A^alpha = frac{mathrm d^2x^alpha}{mathrm dtau^2} + Gamma^alpha{}_{munu}U^mu U^nu $$



        and speaking rather loosely the first term on the right is the inertial acceleration and the second term is the gravitational acceleration. The problem is that while the four-acceleration is a tensor the two terms on the right are not. It is always possible to choose a coordinate system that makes the inertial acceleration zero - in fact this is simply the rest frame of the accelerating object. Likewise it's always possible to choose coordinates that make the Christoffel symbols, $Gamma^alpha{}_{munu}$, equal to zero - these are the normal coordinates.



        This is the equivalence principle in action. While the four-acceleration is a tensor, and therefore a coordinate independent object, the two terms on the right can be interchanged by a choice of coordinates making the acceleration look purely inertial, purely gravitational, or some combination of the two just by changing coordinates.



        Since there is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the mass distribution there is no absolute coordinate system for measuring the inertial acceleration. The two types of acceleration are fundamentally indistinguishable.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered 7 hours ago









        John Rennie

        268k41524774




        268k41524774






















            up vote
            4
            down vote













            I like John Rennie's answer, but I'd like to add something. From the point of view of general relativity alone, and equations of motion, his answer is complete. From the point of view of large-scale cosmology, there is something to add. It turns out that the distribution of matter in the universe is rather simple on the largest scales, in that the evidence is that it is homogeneous and isotropic (as I say, on the largest scales). It follows that one can use this matter distribution to set up a most natural frame of reference or coordinate system. This is the reference frame in which nothing is moving on average at the largest scales. It is called comoving coordinates in cosmology. One can discover one's acceleration relative to this coordinate system.






            share|cite|improve this answer

















            • 2




              Yes, there is no such thing as a "preferred" coordinate system but the world is full of coordinate systems that people prefer. ;)
              – Display Name
              3 hours ago















            up vote
            4
            down vote













            I like John Rennie's answer, but I'd like to add something. From the point of view of general relativity alone, and equations of motion, his answer is complete. From the point of view of large-scale cosmology, there is something to add. It turns out that the distribution of matter in the universe is rather simple on the largest scales, in that the evidence is that it is homogeneous and isotropic (as I say, on the largest scales). It follows that one can use this matter distribution to set up a most natural frame of reference or coordinate system. This is the reference frame in which nothing is moving on average at the largest scales. It is called comoving coordinates in cosmology. One can discover one's acceleration relative to this coordinate system.






            share|cite|improve this answer

















            • 2




              Yes, there is no such thing as a "preferred" coordinate system but the world is full of coordinate systems that people prefer. ;)
              – Display Name
              3 hours ago













            up vote
            4
            down vote










            up vote
            4
            down vote









            I like John Rennie's answer, but I'd like to add something. From the point of view of general relativity alone, and equations of motion, his answer is complete. From the point of view of large-scale cosmology, there is something to add. It turns out that the distribution of matter in the universe is rather simple on the largest scales, in that the evidence is that it is homogeneous and isotropic (as I say, on the largest scales). It follows that one can use this matter distribution to set up a most natural frame of reference or coordinate system. This is the reference frame in which nothing is moving on average at the largest scales. It is called comoving coordinates in cosmology. One can discover one's acceleration relative to this coordinate system.






            share|cite|improve this answer












            I like John Rennie's answer, but I'd like to add something. From the point of view of general relativity alone, and equations of motion, his answer is complete. From the point of view of large-scale cosmology, there is something to add. It turns out that the distribution of matter in the universe is rather simple on the largest scales, in that the evidence is that it is homogeneous and isotropic (as I say, on the largest scales). It follows that one can use this matter distribution to set up a most natural frame of reference or coordinate system. This is the reference frame in which nothing is moving on average at the largest scales. It is called comoving coordinates in cosmology. One can discover one's acceleration relative to this coordinate system.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered 5 hours ago









            Andrew Steane

            2,346524




            2,346524








            • 2




              Yes, there is no such thing as a "preferred" coordinate system but the world is full of coordinate systems that people prefer. ;)
              – Display Name
              3 hours ago














            • 2




              Yes, there is no such thing as a "preferred" coordinate system but the world is full of coordinate systems that people prefer. ;)
              – Display Name
              3 hours ago








            2




            2




            Yes, there is no such thing as a "preferred" coordinate system but the world is full of coordinate systems that people prefer. ;)
            – Display Name
            3 hours ago




            Yes, there is no such thing as a "preferred" coordinate system but the world is full of coordinate systems that people prefer. ;)
            – Display Name
            3 hours ago


















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